As I am sure many of you have noticed, several posters have recently been put up by a Christian group in our school. Most of my friends, even those whom I would regard as significantly less atheistic than me, expressed disdain for those posters. While I had a good laugh about those posters with my friends, those posters did inspire some thought in me.
But just in case you have no idea what I am talking about, here’s a brief head’s up. Basically, there were two kinds of pictures: one featuring a group of girls (Megan Chang, Jeanne Yeo, Melodie Tan, Joanne Gay and Audrey Han) and one featuring a group of guys (oops, no idea who, haha). In both cases, the group would strike a pose, whip up a large smile, and the caption read, “We are very happy. Ask us why.” An email was left, weareveryhappy@gmail.com.
This was the same group who had given out hand written cards carrying biblical verses and other words of encouragement to almost every person in the cohort.
Honestly, I felt fairly touched when I received one of those cards. Nicely hand written, the group had obviously put in much effort. Hence, even though several friends expressed concern at such blatant evangelizing, the difficult issues underlying such a practice escaped my mind at the time.
However, when I saw these posters, I realized that there are indeed contentious questions here.
Firstly, to what extent should freedom of expression be allowed in public spaces like schools?
My personal opinion would simply be: as much as possible. I am perfectly fine with most forms of expressions in school. One of the things I am proudest of VJC is the large amount of autonomy students have in putting up posters on their own initiative, allowing for the expression of several clever and creative marketing ideas. At a very basic level, I also tend to feel okay with religious expressions in school.
However, if religious expressions are allowed, then us agnostics and atheists should have a right to express our beliefs as well. There is no reason why religious beliefs should be privileged over any other beliefs: they should be criticized if they are irrational; they should be criticized if they are harmful. An example of the former would be Creationism and Intelligent Design; an example of the latter would be promoting Homophobia.
Therefore, I believe that religious expressions should be allowed if and only if all forms of religious and anti-religious expressions can be allowed. The school should be neutral, as should all student leadership bodies (SC announcements must not end with “God Bless”), but individuals have the right to associate, form groups, and express their opinions.
However, it is clear that such open and free expression would make many people uncomfortable, not least the government itself. Indeed, a free for all combat between all possible religious factions in public spaces could potentially undermine the fabric of our society.
Hence, I was left in a dilemma. On one hand, I believe that religion is in many areas a negative influence upon society and should be robustly criticized by private individuals (not, I stress, governments). On the other, I am inclined towards hoping for maximum freedom of expression possible.
I was thus left with three options when I saw those posters:
a) Come up with an alternative poster, possibly one featuring our beloved Flying Spaghetti Monster
b) Report to the school on the inappropriateness of religious evangelizing in a public space
c) Do nothing
Well, I chose option c), though I heard that someone brought the issue up with the Students’ Council.
I chose to do nothing, because I finally decided that the posters were not overt religious messages. Rather, they were merely inviting people to email them. Our knowledge that they were religious came from our own background knowledge. If there had been any explicit Christian references, be it a biblical verse or even a cross, I would have chosen option b).
Why not option a), one might ask, since I profess a love for the freedom of expression. The reason is simply that choosing option a) would probably have blown this way out of proportion, and alienated people from non-religiosity.
Seeing the people in this Christian group does make me worry, though, about whether Singaporean elites are becoming increasingly religious. In a country like Singapore, this is especially important. We are a country highly dependent on our leaders being enlightened, knowing where to draw the line between religion and state. Hence, I was extremely glad when, during the Grassroots and Governance dialogue, Senior Minister of State Lim Hwee Hua answered Camille’s question on moral issues in parliament by first stating, “We are a secular state.”
I think this has to be emphasized to the religious all over our country: We are a secular state. The imposition of the values of one religion on the rest of us is tantamount to tyranny. Whether one thinks that homosexuality is wrong is a separate issue altogether from whether or not homosexuality should be banned. The first is a personal opinion, and one has the right to tell their friends and family not to be homosexual. The second is a question of whether the state should ignore the rights of an entire people, criminalizing what is essentially a private decision between two consenting adults.
I strongly believe in the need to speak out against the rising tide of Christian evangelism in Singapore, but I hesitate in lobbying the authorities, choosing to spread the rational word within my private social circle instead. Unfortunately, freedom of expression may not work both ways as the school might censor atheistic opinions while allowing religious ones to propagate.
Thus, should religious expression become more explict and prevalent in schools, an essentially public domain, I truly would become more worried. Perhaps if that were to happen, taking the issue up to the higher ups may be necessary. Though I shudder at the prospect of increased authoritarianism in what I feel is an area where we can afford to relax a little bit, it may just be that Christian evangelists have proven me wrong.
August 23, 2008 at 8:51 am |
i somehow have mixed opinions on this post. but all in all, i find your opinion quite mature. :)
I myself am a Christian and found the cards quite encouraging as well. As for the posters… Even if the background theme was religious, the posters themselves were quite ‘entertaining’ in its own ways, don’t you think so? At least they managed to put a smile on my face when I saw them.(I’m trying NOT to be biased here…)
To quote what you said, “The imposition of the values of one religion on the rest of us is tantamount to tyranny”. I think it’s rather unfair to use the word ‘imposition’ as I’m sure the religious groups are not FORCING their views on others but just sharing them. If one opts to ignore it, the most they CAN do is continue to share with them but they can’t FORCE one to adopt the same views as well, don’t you think so? Furthermore, we are only sharing the stuff that we think SHOULD be shared. I mean… If you had some really good news that is of benefit to everyone who heard it, wouldn’t YOU share it?
Just my humble opinion…
August 23, 2008 at 11:45 am |
Hey, thanks for the comment.
Hmm, I personally did not find the posters more entertaining than the average poster, though it certainly caught my eye due to its unique subject matter.
On the question of imposition, though, I disagree with you.
I think you may have understood me, which might be my fault since I might not have been clear. When I spoke of the imposition of values, I was not talking about evangelizing. I agree that Christian groups are not forcing anyone in becoming Christian.
However, religious groups do try to exert political influence. It is here, where there is an imposition of values.
Let us ask ourselves: what is it that religious groups are trying to do when they lobby the government? What is the -content- of their political advocacy?
They are trying to influence the government in making laws. Hence, in Singapore, Christians organized initiatives to prevent the repealing of Section 377a.
I am -not- saying that religious groups are trying to force their opinions on the government; nobody can do that.
Instead, they try to influence the government to behave in ways consistent with their moral values. In other words, they see the government as a body which should behave just as how they would behave.
Thus we have: “I believe abortion is wrong, hence abortion should be banned”, “I believe homosexuality is wrong, therefore homosexuality should be banned”, ” I believe pornography is wrong, therefore pornography should be banned,” “I believe interracial marriage is wrong, hence intermarriage should be banned”. (Yeah, that last one was once promulgated by religious groups in the USA.)
What we see here is a glaring failure to appreciate that the state should not be upholding the values of a religion, but that laws should be upheld on secular grounds. The reasons for and against a law are different from the reasons for and against a particular belief (eg, “Homosexuality is wrong”).
This constitutes religious groups as trying to impose their values on other people. As they try to lobby governments to elevate their personal views, they are trying to FORCE the rest of us to follow those rules.
An analogy would be: I believe that wearing blue specs is evil. I go to the school to try to convince them to ban blue specs. Am I not trying to impose my personal values on the rest of the group?
What would constitute sharing is if religious groups agreed that laws should not discriminate, and should be fair and just towards ALL people, even those whom they believe are immoral. Then, as private individuals, they may share whatever opinion they want.
In conclusion, by trying to influence the government in enacting laws that will privilege its beliefs at the expense of the freedom and welfare of others, religion IS trying to impose itself.
August 23, 2008 at 4:09 pm |
Hello,
i have stumbled upon your blog and i hereby offer my comments.
I tend to find your article quite contradictory. You say religious groups are trying to influence the government in making laws, and that should not be allowed as it is tantamount to forcing their religious values on the rest of the population. But to look at it from the flipside, by having the decision making process left to the secular state, the non-religious are now the ones imposing their values on the rest of the population, because technically and logically, secularism IS a non-religious religion, is it not?
And this may be cause for concern because how can the the state impose secular values when this non-religious religion that they are supposed to abide with has no stated set of values to begin with but rely on their combined individual moral values intrinsic to all humans to make decisions? To this i believe you might reply that the state is a secular state, hence we should be secular. But lets say the state is a Christian state, it does not mean all of its citizens are forced to be Christians. Your underlying mission in writing this seems to be an effort devalue the religious and promote secularism. Then how can you accuse me of promoting my religion?
Also, your post is directly referring to Christian groups, should you not consider the other religions that have caused far worst damage to the world. In saying this I am obviously referring to the muslims commuity, but I am not criticizing them because I know that the whole terrorist commotion started because of extremist groups who distort the good intentions of the original teachings of the religion. So is it not a personal attack that you are launching against Christians when you say it is a ‘glaring failure’ if the state upholds laws based on religious values? Do you not think that the government is not rational enough to differentiate between upholding religious values and drawing upon good values from any religious group to base laws upon that will benefit the whole pupolation?
I feel that your athestic background has blindsighted you towards the religious, in doing so making you very adverse towards religious beings. As a christian, i am truly sorry if the actions on myself or fellow christians have caused your disgust in the religious but i assure you that although we are called in the Bible to spread the word of God, we do not FORCE it, we share it in love. And if you are willing to learn more and listen about it im sure any of your christian friends would oblidge. Please note that there is a difference between reading the Bible to want to know GOd and grow in the knowledge of God, and reading the Bible to proof to yourself that Christianity is a fluke, because in the latter you have already closed your mind to anything you read and will not understand whatever your read even if you think you do.
So i am sorry once again if i have offending your religion in anyway in what i have said and i will remember you in my prayers in hope you will find the truth one day.
God bless you :)
PS, if you believe what the church of the spagetti monter has said, inherently you are believing in a grossly distorted version of the Bible, which is more or less equal to being an extremist. And on that note, putting up posters about the spagetti monster would hence elicit more ‘good laughs’ and making it more of a joke.
AND, im sorry if the ONE TIME that an SC announcement ended with a ‘God bless’ has sparked off more non-SC announcements ending with ‘God bless’ has caused you much trauma.
August 23, 2008 at 7:44 pm |
Hi Daryl i think i kinda know you from school and a friend told me about this post and so i decided to read it and have a few things to share.
Like tkl, i think your post was intelligent and mature but what i have to say is more about your response to tkl.
“Instead, they try to influence the government to behave in ways consistent with their moral values.” But isnt that their role in our community? Like you said, they dont (because really no one can) enforce anything on the government but merely advice and represent all those that believe in that faith regarding issues like homosexuality. I think ive written enough GP essays to know how badly our morals can get corroded and so they are kinda like a check to its decline. like how we always say that we need credible opposition (who have yet to surface) to be a check to a (our) virtually one-party government.
“I believe abortion is wrong, hence abortion should be banned”, “I believe homosexuality is wrong, therefore homosexuality should be banned”, ” I believe pornography is wrong, therefore pornography should be banned,” I honestly dont think that its that simple. I think you kinda left out a few important bits like how many religions are (i know the catholic church is) pro-life (that explains the abortion bit), how homosexuality causes the family (ie father, mother, children) to lose its place as the unit of society (not to mention our already saddening birth rates)and i seriously dont see how anyone can say that the grotesque demeaning of a gender (or two) can be anything but wrong. I dont think the millions of people out there who have faiths are that stupid.
And most importantly, i know those people on the posters personally and they really dont mean any harm. They are just happy people who want to share that with others. And there is really nothing religious to the posters except that you have received personalised (and private) cards from those same people that say WEAREVERYHAPPY. If you really are the supporter of free speech that you say you are then please realise that people have different views and free speech doesnt just mean your own speech. And airing them does not equal imposing or enforcing them onto others.Just as i know you will feel very happy when you see so many people have something to say about your views, they want to be happy sharing this happiness.
I respect your decision to be an atheist so please respect the people who have faith, without speaking about them in a condescending fashion.
Thank you very much and God Bless. (:
August 23, 2008 at 8:22 pm |
Just to clarify, we gave out cards to the whole cohort and it was a mixture of biblical verses and encouragements. :)
what did yours say! we hope it encouraged you :)
August 23, 2008 at 10:29 pm |
Hey, i’m a random passerby. I found your post certainly very engaging.
I personally agree that there should be no room for posters of a religious nature to be plastered across a public space such as a school. Has the group of girls and boys seeked permission from the school to do so? If one can find posters of a religious nature around school, does it mean the school authorities are sanctioning such a practice?
Singapore is multi-racial and multi-religious. Imagine if the state chose to privellege one religion over another. Would that not undermine our efforts of social cohesion? Secularism is not a religion, as Christian Passerby pointed out. It is a model that works for the people and the government.
Having said that, i do believe that the group of girls and boys do not mean harm. However, they should be more aware of the impacts their actions will have on others. I for one, would not feel too comfortable seeing such posters hanging around my son’s school for instance.
August 23, 2008 at 11:29 pm |
Hi Daryl and Singaporean, i’m one of those who are behind the posters project. Even though the posters were indeed of a religious nature, our primary aim is to reach out to students who are feeling down and stressed due to the upcoming exams so as to lift up their spirits and spread the joy that is within us. Evangelism is secondary.
The words ‘We are very happy’ do not act as a mere tool or device to attract people’s attention and spark curiosity. We do mean what we say from the bottom of our hearts and we really hope that these not-so-joyful people in our school will somehow get a sense of satisfaction knowing that there’s a group of happy people who cares for their schoolmates.
“Singapore is multi-racial and multi-religious. Imagine if the state chose to privellege one religion over another. Would that not undermine our efforts of social cohesion?”(quoted from Singaporean)
We definitely have no intention of distorting the multi-racial and multi-religious structure of Singapore. Also, i do not fancy the idea of the government showing privilege to a certain religion either (even if its Christianity) because we respect other religions just as how you guys respect ours. Do note that hoping that a religion can be a majority in this country is different from hoping that a religion can be more privileged than others.
“However, they should be more aware of the impacts their actions will have on others.” (quoted from Singaporean)
Well, we took into serious consideration how this will really impact others and we saw no harm doing it. You see, when people questioned us, “Why are you happy?” and we gave our replies, it is up to them to accept it and then forget it, accept it and then ponder over it, or just ignore it completely. We respect their decision and their comments on what we have to say. Of course, if there are people who are really keen on the faith that we believe in, we’ll be more than happy to help fulfill their desire by answering their queries and giving necessary information. Then again, if they do not feel too happy about it,we respect their say.
Daryl, i really like your post entitled ‘Loss of Faith’ found among the other classic posts.It’s not because you were losing your faith, but because you had this faith in alleviating poverty and helping the world and stuff (although the post was about 2 years ago). It’s really comforting to know that you have this vision, and i really thank you for organising ‘Rock on Myanmar’ to help the victims of Cyclone Nargis. Do keep the passion of helping the poor and needy burning, and i will keep you in prayer because i want to help you too.
Take care all! (:
August 23, 2008 at 11:42 pm |
Hi Daryl
Nick’s sis here. I found your post to be very engaging indeed. Regarding Christian passerby’s post, secularism is NOT a religion. The state is secular, meaning that it favors not one religion over the other, and it is a model that works well and best for Singapore.
It’s the same reason why Singapore is a neutral state.
I do believe that the students who gave out those messages are trying to be nice and encouraging, and doing it out of the love in their heart. They are also be innovative in using such a channel to reach a captive audience (the VJC cohort), but like you, I do not think it is right for the students to do this.
The bottom line is, no matter how much the students argue, they are advertising Christianity (or promoting the values of Christianity, should one find the word ‘advertising’ too strong)to a mass audience and this should NOT be allowed in schools. There was a furore some years back over the tudong issue, and as much the reason why that wasn’t allowed, the advertising of messages with religious undertones should never be allowed in the thin veil of encouragement.
August 24, 2008 at 12:32 am |
Wow, that’s alot of comments, and I do want to respond to everyone. However, I only had time to respond to Christian passerby so far.
Hey Christian passerby, thanks for commenting. I think you have misunderstood some parts of what I said, and you also raised some substantive issues that I will address.
So clarifications first:
1. I did not write this post in order to insult any religion. As one may see from the title of the post, the main point of this post is to invite others to think about some difficult issues on religion and freedom of speech, as well as giving my personal thoughts on this issue. I tried my best to maintain a non-emotive tone, yet still deal robustly with the issues involved. I apologize if you or any Christian/religious person have been offended.
2. I am not targeting Christianity specifically. I fully agree that mainstream Christianity is far from the most dangerous kind of religious thought. There is no doubt that Islamic Extremism has that honor.
If one were to read my post carefully, I speak about “religious groups” in general. The only time I speak of “Christian groups” is when a) I am talking about this particular Christian group, or b) the example I am giving pertains to Christianity. This is not to say that moderate groups are as unpleasant as extremist groups, but that moderate groups engage in lobbying governments all over the world as well.
3. Ermmm… The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not serious. I don’t actually “believe in it”. It’s intended to be satirical, so it would be fully fulfilling its purpose if it elicited “good laughs”.
4. I am neither traumatized nor offended about anything at all. So don’t worry and feel free to say anything you like.
Now for some really difficult substantive issues that I will try to deal with:
1. Is there a difference between an SC announcement ending with “God bless” and a non-SC announcement ending with “God bless”?
I believe so. While Passerby may only have intended this to be a passing remark, there is something to be reflected about here.
The SC is an official student leadership body. When the SC announcements are made, those announcements are made from this official position. It is a position that is endorsed by the school administration. An SC making a religious statement in this position would be analogous to the Principle making a religious statement. Since VJC is a government school, not a private school, this is tantamount governmental endorsement of a particular religious view. This is fundamentally a breach of the separation between religion and State.
On the other hand, a non-SC announcement ending with “God bless” is the personal opinion of a private individual. In this case, the individual is merely expressing his view or the collective view of his student group and it does not entail a governmental endorsement of a particular religious view.
This is not to say that SCs cannot be religious. That is nonsense. All I am saying is that, in an official position, the SC is not just a private individual. He is acting as a representative of both the school and the student body.
2. What is secularism? Is it atheism? Is it a religion?
Secularism is simply the principle that governmental institutions should be separate from religious belief. It says that the government should not promote one religion over any other mode of thought. Instead, the State stays broadly neutral and allows freedom of religion for everyone.
Secularism is not atheism. Atheism is the belief that it is quite unlikely that God exists. Secularism says nothing about whether or not God exists. It only says that the opinion of whether God exists, or which God exists, is a matter of private opinion.
Secularism is not, “logically or technically” a religion. Yes, it is a belief. But not all beliefs are “religions”. From wikipedia:
“A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law.”
I would add that a religion is also a social organization that caters to a specific community.
Thus, secularism is neither atheism nor a religion.
3. Is atheism a religion?
My simple answer is no. Like the above question, atheism is a belief but that does not make it a religion. I would say that atheism is a more rational belief, but that would be a different post.
4. Does the government impose secular values? Should it impose secular values?
In a sense, yes, the government does impose secular values. The question that is more important is: should the government do so?
I believe yes.
a) Secularism helps prevent social divides from tearing up society.
A State that is not secular is, by definition, on the side of one particular religion. Whether or not the State forces everyone to be a part of the religion, it still priveleges the views of one religious group over other groups in society. This leads to tension within the society, and social fault lines will deepen.
An example of this would be Malaysia, where the committment to secularism is ambiguous at best. In cases pertaining to conversion and other religious issues, matters are referred to the Sharia Courts. This has led to the perception that Muslims are priveleged over non-Muslims. The fact that the UMNO Youth Leader waved the kris during a speech further adds to this. This has led to social tensions, and a feeling of oppression and alienation.
Also imagine what would the reaction be if tomorrow the government announces that we are now going a Christian state, or an Islamic state. That picture should suffice to remind us of the importance of secularism in our society.
b) Secularism maximizes freedom: freedom to practice any religion, and freedom from all religion.
Secularism means more freedom for everyone. It is freedom for any person to practice the religion he chooses, and it is freedom for any person to not practice religion. It is hypocritical for a religious person to not want to be subjected to another religion’s laws, yet attempt to enshrine his religion in law.
Atheists are not exempt from this. Any atheist who values the fact that he has the freedom to not believe in religion, should also value the fact that other people should be allowed to. Aheists who promulgate religious persecution should be roundedly criticized as well.
5. What form does public discourse take in a secular society?
Passerby raised an interesting point: So what if the government base laws on religious values? Those laws can benefit the whole population all the same.
I completely agree.
A law can be consistent with religious values, yet benefit the whole population, religious and non-religious alike. However, it is important that we justify these laws on precisely those benefits. Public discourse in a secular state would not appeal to religious authority for justification of laws.
And it is highly important that this is so. Imagine having a debate with someone, and you ask the person, “So, why is homosexuality wrong?” and the person replies, “Because God said so.” This immediately kills proper debate.
And it is proper debate that we so desperately need. By proper debate, I mean that we should critically question all values that any group wishes to elevate.
I hope I have dealt with your concerns. Feel free to comment further.
August 24, 2008 at 1:23 am |
hey guys.
you know this thing about our faith, it’s smth so awesome that anyone who Truly felt it would want to share it so ppl will be blessed too.it’s not a selfish thing (like how alot of things in this world are) that we just keep it to ourselves. many of you think we’re trying to “convert” ppl all but heh, evangelism is secondary, what we what to do is show that we care in this world where many men have made themselves gods and thus might (i say Might-if you’re doing so and you’re feeling truly alright im happy for you:) ) be feeling kinda lost and empty somehow. we just offer smth different which has helped us and we just hope it’ll help you too.
THAT’S ALL :) (not trying to drive singapore into chaos by ‘imposing’ our views on the govt or wtv)
daryl and anyone out there who are so against what we did, just want you to know if ever in your life, you face smth in which your logical brain cannot fathom, rmb our posters. it says “we are very happy”. we basically have Joy that means we’re happy whatever the circumstance. maybe then you could drop us another email :)
August 24, 2008 at 4:10 pm |
Does everything need a proper debate?
And since when did faith need to mean something logical?
think about it, what is faith?
August 24, 2008 at 8:28 pm |
To Desmond Chng:
Hey Desmond, haha yeah, I suppose we kinda know each other from school and even last time from VS. I think I agree with quite a lot of what you say, but let me make some quick points.
1. Religions certainly see themselves as society’s moral guardians. However, I would argue that religious views on morality should not be privileged just because they are a religion’s view. The words of a pastor do not have greater weight than the words of any ordinary person, prima facie.
2. My comment on the whole “I believe X is wrong, therefore X should be banned” is meant to question the fact that just because X is wrong, X should be banned. The reasons for “wrong” and the reasons for “ban” are separate, though linked.
3. I would also argue that many things which religions say or once said are wrong, are actually not. That includes abortion, homosexuality, pornography and interracial marriage. I would also say that many things which religions say or once said is right, like unquestioning belief, or racism, or slavery is wrong. But that’s of course, a separate debate.
4. I am a supporter of free speech, yes. But I fear your comment reveals that you have not read my post properly. My problem is that if we were to allow religious expression on public forums like schools, then we should allow criticism of religion to be aired publicly as well. If we do not want to go down that road, then both speech (one which I agree with, one which I do not) will have to disallowed. In other words, I believe in free speech when it is truly free.
August 24, 2008 at 8:34 pm |
To Joanne Gay:
Hey there. Thanks for commenting. I’ve made changes to my post based on your clarification to reflect more accurately your activities.
That you most certainly have the right to have unquestioning belief goes without saying. However, if we want to examine the social consequences of religion then we surely must have a proper debate. While you may disagree, I also think that even the truth of the contents of religious beliefs should be debated.
In short: yes, everything has to be debated.
August 25, 2008 at 2:48 pm |
hmmm… IMHO, faith is really believing without having to see something tangible. N d fact tat ppl can actually believe that there is NO God with so much wonderful things all around makes me take my hat off to you. You have even MORE faith than me to believe that there’s no God!
Anyway, Daryl… I’ve learnt over the years that there’re ppl who you can debate with and change their minds over some stuff, and then there’re those who… no matter what you say, they’ll stand firm on what they believe in… So… after so much ‘debate’ that’s gone on, I believe that if you CHOOSE to not accept what joanne, desmond and whoever else have said… I guess no one can change your opinion on this issue except you(and might I add, God). As a matter of fact, all the ‘debate’ might as well have made you look at religion with an EVEN stronger opinion.
So… Maybe you’re used to all the debating competitions that you think everything deserves to be debated but I think both sides will have thousands of reasons to touch on and that both will think the other’s opinions being slightly off, which means there’ll never be such a thing as a final conclusion… So… I don’t think there’s much to debate if one is rather shut off from external opinions.
Hmmm… Come to think of it… Most debate competitions don’t end off with the motion being rejected or accepted but with just a mention of which side debating their points better, no? Just means that given that time period, they made their points more convincing but doesn’t mean they’re right, right?
Just my humble opinions…
August 25, 2008 at 3:05 pm |
hi friends! wow, this is the first time i’m reading this and i am truly speechless and amazed that this happy poster has caused so much commotion among the masses! and now, since everyone has said so much i think it is quite unecessary that i should type a super long entry to reiterate my views so:
hi daryl! i really appreciate your efforts and your views and thank you for being so honest :) i guess people have differing views but wayne and joanne and megan are right. all we want to do is spread the love and joy we have despite our circumstances to interested parties and it’s really nothing to do with forcing our views on others. evangelism was definitely not our primary purpose in putting the posters up. i guess many just inferred that it was the case as they knew we were a prayer group/are christians. we really hope you guys will understand that it’s just a faith that keeps us going and we’re just very passionate about it :)
p/s: somehow i don’t quite agree that everything has to be debated… won’t it make life an arduous process :(
well, God bless to everyone who reads this and all the best for prelims ya!:)
August 25, 2008 at 9:23 pm |
Hulloa, everyone who visits this site!
i’m replying to the initial post and the first two comments, ’cause i haven’t read the rest. It’s a long, long read. i will get through everything one day though.
i’m a Christian, yeah, one of the very happy people. And i love our school too, Darryl. And i love freedom of speech. i personally believe it’s a God-given right to humanity, but that’s just my opinion, don’t let me be influencing your thoughts on the right to expressing opinions. grin. (Sorry, i’m sarcastic, i know. Don’t mean anything by it though.)
i’m all for freedom of belief too. Sure, i do hold that if you don’t believe in Christ that when you die you’ll go to hell. i’m a Christian, i don’t have a choice ’bout that belief. But that’s not something i’m gonna impose upon you. i could be wrong. But who knows? i don’t.
But as i said, i don’t wanna impose upon you. Just stating what i feel. If i impose upon you when i don’t have the right to, take a gun and blow my head off. Metaphorically, i mean. The literal would hurt a bit too much, i think. i don’t think anyone has the right to impose beliefs on another person. The Bible says that. ‘All men are created equal,’ no? So who’s to say what i should believe in?
Christians especially shouldn’t be imposing their beliefs on other people. For one thing, it just puts people off, no? And it’s just not the way we’re supposed to live. Maybe we can impose upon each other, but Christians shouldn’t be imposing beliefs and condemning non-Christians. It’s not your value-system, it’s not a fair comparison. Sure, we may try to persuade, convince, cajole, whatever, but imposition is not being human to one another. It’s unfair. It’s not my right to tell someone they’re going to hell for sinning. i’m just as bad a sinner as everyone else, if not worse.
‘Bout Christians trying to impose their beliefs on society as a whole, trying to affect a country’s constitution, legislature kinda thing (my English ain’t too good, man…don’t know the right word, really), let’s take away the religious dimension for awhile, shall we? If we attempt to look at it from an objective perspective, is the proposition in line with morality and the good of society? i’m not talking ’bout homosexuality here, but any proposition by any religious group at all. France, i think, has a law that makes it a crime not to help someone that you see in need. Say that was proposed by a Christian group, would you be against that proposition? i figure if something makes sense, let’s grab it and run with it. ‘Bout homosexuality in specific, i don’t agree with the practice itself. But i know guys who aren’t straight and they’re really cool, fun, intelligent people to hang out with. i enjoy their friendship. i don’t agree with their lifestyle, but it’s their life, not mine.
Yeah, i know i might be annoying or angering a lot of Christians who are reading this. But to all you Christians out there who might be getting angry, whatever happened to love and mercy and compassion, understanding other people and caring for them regardless of who and what they are at this present moment? i will live my life as best i can, in line with God’s love and mercy and trying to be a blessing to all those around me, not a harbringer of doom and condemnation. If i get the chance, sure, i’ll talk about what i believe, i’ll present my views on life, religion and anything else you ask me to talk about. i might say that i believe a non-Christian will go to hell. But that’s my opinion, my belief, an absolute to me but i will not make it an absolute to someone doesn’t want it to be theirs. i’ll let God be the judge, if he exists, and i believe that he does.
Peace.
God bless you all.
whyon
Note: i hope i haven’t offended you further, Darryl. Whatever Christian message might be in there is to make a point, not to impose a belief.
And very sorry for making this message board all that much longer.
August 25, 2008 at 10:43 pm |
so amazed at how you debate and all, daryl. i mean no doubt you’re knowledgeable and articulate. probably smart as well. just wondering if you’d ever be humbled and agree with someone with a different stand pt.. not being rude.
i seriously wonder…
August 25, 2008 at 11:01 pm |
EXCUSE ME!
Why is there not enough credit going to the flying spaghetti monster and his less well known assistance, linguine maxima!!!
It is sad when such a profound religion is discriminated against by those who hold religious beliefs as well. =(
August 25, 2008 at 11:15 pm |
Faith comes before understanding. so if you wanna understand everything daryl and debate it all out, maybe you need to take that leap of faith. then after that try to debate your experience with God agst His existence. if that leap of faith was genuine, you’ll be flawed.
August 26, 2008 at 12:30 am |
daryl, i would like it very much if you were able to explain to me what the meaning of faith is. thank you.
August 26, 2008 at 12:31 am |
Dear Daryl,
I am Jonathan Tan from 07S47, someone who is also part of this christian group you mentioned about. I read your post earlier on saturday but chose to think about how I should reply to your post for a few days before airing my views. I do not know you well, but I know you as one of michelle and jovena’s friends whom I helped to take a photo for during the Rock On Myanmar Concert.
Personally, I’m impressed at the depth of the online articles you have posted on your blog and the boldness to bring up and discuss controversial issues, the latest of which is mainly directed at the placement of posters in school. I would like to thank you for your honesty regarding the issue.
We had no intentions to stir up any controversial debates among the school population nor did we want to impose or enforce our religious views upon anybody. That’s what I can say on a personal level to clarify certain stuffs. But I guess what we wanted to do is to share the joy within us with others, perhaps through the humorous tone of the photos or on a very personal level – a heart-to-heart talk if we were approached in such a manner, which took place. All these were done with good intentions in hope that the people around us will be happier, like how you would want to share something good you have with a loved one. By being one of the organisers of the Rock on Myanmar and Busk in the Sun event shows how much you want to help society and are willing to make many sacrifices for such a cause. Likewise we want to do so too through our actions, but perhaps through a different way.
I hope I clarified some stuffs there. I’m sorry if some of the different views put forth by people might have been misinterpreted and have offended you in one way or another but I’m sure they didn’t meant it that way. Just to clarify once again.
“I strongly believe in the need to speak out against the rising tide of Christian evangelism in Singapore, but I hesitate in lobbying the authorities, choosing to spread the rational word within my private social circle instead. Unfortunately, freedom of expression may not work both ways as the school might censor atheistic opinions while allowing religious ones to propagate.”
I guess this statement you made about your belief about the rising tide of Christian evangelism in Singapore can be explained by an atheist user who posted this reply on a public forum to a similiar topic, “christians just want to share the good things they have with others, they do not mean us any harm”. Those were roughly the words he posted. Maybe you could put some thought into that.
In conclusion, it has been a pleasure to have this opportunity to present my views to you. I sincerely do not hold anything against you and would like to get to know you better as a friend if I’m presented with an opportunity. All the best for preparations for the main bulk of the prelims. May you obtain the desired grades of your choice. :)
Yours sincerely,
Jonathan Tan
August 26, 2008 at 12:58 am |
IMHO,
Come on, the guy has the right to air his views. I dont really think the guy needs christians to pray for him. Dont you think that reeks a tad of moral snobbishness. Just because some of you have made that leap of faith, and everything becomes clearer after that, does not mean that doing so can be validated or justified. By mentioning faith you’re just shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, everyone’s entitled to their faiths, just dont get so uptight and defensive.
Not being rude here. Just my humble opinions…
August 26, 2008 at 9:25 am |
you probably know what i have to say already.
one last thing though…
DARYL, i will kill you if you put up posters on the Flying Spaghetti monster!!!!!! HAHA idiot!
August 26, 2008 at 11:03 am |
i dont think he needs us to pray. we just want to.
August 27, 2008 at 12:32 am |
Hey Diane, haha yeah I suppose I can guess what are the things you might say. But you know, here on my blog I’m just being ultra frank and when I deal with issues I tend to have a fairly sharp tone. So I hope you’re not offended by what you read.
And about FSM, haha it’s satire but it’s satire with a point. That’s the reason why I might potentially consider publicizing it.
August 27, 2008 at 12:38 am |
Hey everyone. Thank you for all your comments. I can tell that several of you have given much thought in responding to my post, and I have given much thought to my response as well. As I said, I had the intention of posting a response to every comment. However, I realized that there are common strands of thoughts overlapping different comments, so I thought I’d organize my responses based on the issues raised by the various comments. It’s not possible for me to cover every point raised, but I hope to deal with the major issues and some fundamental misunderstandings in an organized manner.
1. What is faith?
“daryl, i would like it very much if you were able to explain to me what the meaning of faith is. thank you.” – Joanne Gay
Simply put, faith is blind belief: belief despite a lack of evidential justification. This flies in the face of reason: in much of our everyday lives, we do not assume entities to exist without any evidence. You do not believe that Harry Potter in an invisibility cloak is beside you right now, nor do you believe that invisible teapots revolve around the sky. While it is logically impossible to prove conclusively the non existence of entities, we take it that the existence of unicorns under our bed is highly unlikely because we have no evidence for such unicorns existing.
This reveals a striking similarity between Christians and atheists: we both do not believe in the existence of Thor, Zeus, Ra, or Yamato. This reveals that all of us do not go around believing things without evidence. Atheists are merely consistent people who go one god further. This presents a question for any religious person: Out of the infinite entities you may have faith in the existence of, why choose one in particular?
One may observe that the choice of one’s faith is largely the result of accidental birth or circumstance. If we were in Ancient Greece, you would be believing in Zeus. This suggests that faith in the context of religion is not just blind belief: it is blind belief that is determined by where you were born. In other words, faith is blind, arbitrary and accidental belief.
Perhaps belief in God isn’t a matter of faith? Perhaps there is evidence for such belief? Maybe only if I would take the leap of faith and believe first, willl God then touch me make me realize that he does exist?
“Faith comes before understanding. so if you wanna understand everything daryl and debate it all out, maybe you need to take that leap of faith. then after that try to debate your experience with God agst His existence. if that leap of faith was genuine, you’ll be flawed.” – Random Passerby
I’m sorry Random Passerby, but you are not making a real argument here. You are saying: If you took the leap of faith, then you would be confronted by how obviously God exists. But if you are not, then your leap of faith wasn’t “genuine”. Since taking a leap of faith is being defined as concluding that God exists, you are merely stating a tautology.
Moreover, “personal religious experiences” can be explained by psychosocial factors. Having gone to church before, I can definitely see how that would work.
2. Does atheism involve faith? Perhaps more faith than religious beliefs?
“N d fact tat ppl can actually believe that there is NO God with so much wonderful things all around makes me take my hat off to you. You have even MORE faith than me to believe that there’s no God!” – tkl
As I explained above, atheism is not just the belief that there is no God. It is the consistent application of the principle that we do not presuppose the existence of entities for which we have no evidence for: a principle which we all use in our lives. Hence, atheism does not involve faith, but is the logical implication of a) the principle of not believing in entities for which there is no evidence, and b) there is no evidence for the existence of a god. One may argue with either premise a) or premise b), but one may not accuse atheism of being a “faith”.
With this framework in mind, tkl seems to be suggesting that there is evidence for God, (he is thus arguing with premise b) as shown by the wonderful things around the world.
However, the things that are wonderful to me do not require the existence of God to occur. The fact that we live much longer, and comfortable lives than our ancestors can be explained by human ingenuity and free markets. The fact that our Earth is so rich in life can be explained by natural selection and Evolution. The fact that life exists at all can be explained by the anthropic principle. I won’t go into all the details here, but feel free to ask me if you’d like me to explain further.
But let’s say we accept tkl’s reasoning: that the wonders of this world are evidence of a God. Does this imply the existence of the Christian God? Perhaps the world is wondrous in such a way that implies the existence of a God. What then is stopping me from believing that the Flying Spaghetti Monster, creator of this wondrous universe, exists?
Thus we see that religious belief involves TWO leaps of faith. Firstly, it involves the belief in entities for which we have no evidence. Secondly, it involves the belief that one particular belief is BETTER than all other possible beliefs that posit entities for which we have no evidence for. This makes religious belief highly irrational, all the more showing that religious belief is blind belief.
I hope that by answering questions 1 and 2 I have shown that a) Religious belief is highly problematic and very difficult to justify, and hence would involve a good deal of “faith” (blind belief), and b) Atheism, being the implication of both an everyday principle that we accept and the fact that there is no good evidence for a god, is the more rational one.
Let us then move on to question 3.
3. Am I dogmatically fixed on my views? What’s the point of debating if I am?
“Anyway, Daryl… I’ve learnt over the years that there’re ppl who you can debate with and change their minds over some stuff, and then there’re those who… no matter what you say, they’ll stand firm on what they believe in…[…] I guess no one can change your opinion on this issue except you” – tkl
“just wondering if you’d ever be humbled and agree with someone with a different stand pt..” – Random Passerby
As I hope you guys can see, I have given this issue a great deal of thought. All my opinions in this blog is the result of more than six years of conversations with various people, reading, and personal reflection. I make no attempts at false modesty: I believe that my position is a well justified and well supported one.
However, this does not mean that I am fixed on my views. There is nothing stopping anyone from providing such a compelling argument that I will be left with no other reasonable option than to believe in God. I remain open to all opinions, and will carefully consider each one offered here. I have been humbled many times, not least in the classroom and by my friends. Ironically, one example where I changed my beliefs drastically and agreed with “someone with a different standpoint”, was when I stopped believing in God(s).
Having said that, I do not expect to change the opinions of most of the Christians who commented here. I can tell that you guys take your faith seriously, and will not abandon it for the mere reason that it would be the rational thing to do. I do hope to provide some food for thought, not just on the issue of religious belief, but on the issues that arise from religions interacting with society at large (which was the main point of the blog, and which I will soon go into).
It is those people sitting on the fence, listening carefully to all sides of the argument, whom I hope to persuade the most. I know of many friends who are unsure of where they stand, and I share my opinions in the hopes that it will allow them to make a more informed decision of their positions.
Let us now move away from the issue of religious belief by itself, and take a look at religious expression in society, which really was the main point of this post.
4. What exactly is the issue at hand? Why is there an issue in the first place?
“We definitely have no intention of distorting the multi-racial and multi-religious structure of Singapore.” -Wayne
“[...]want to share it so ppl will be blessed too [...] evangelism is secondary, what we what to do is show that we care in this world” – Megan
“all we want to do is spread the love and joy we have despite our circumstances to interested parties” – Melodie
“what we wanted to do is to share the joy within us with others” – Johnathan Tan
Firstly, let me make it very clear what the issue is not. The issue is NOT about the Christian group’s intentions. I completely accept that they were merely doing what they felt was right, and that their heart was in the right place. Hence, I agree with the sentiment expressed in all those comments I just quoted. Also, the issue is NOT about Christian evangelism. While some (like myself) would disagree that there is a real difference between “evangelizing” and “sharing our joy”, this is not the issue. I am not saying that Christians should not be allowed to evangelized, even though I express a worry that it is becoming more common (which I will address later).
The issue is this: To what extent should free religious expression be allowed on platforms that are government-linked?
Let me explain. I realize that this issue might not have been clear in my original post, and for that I apologize.
Firstly, what do I mean by religious expression? Here, I mean specifically expression that intends to celebrate or promote a particular religion. Also, debate about religion is not religious expression, as I hope is clear. Secondly, I distinguish between three types of platforms where speech may take place. 1) Private platforms, 2) Public platforms, and 3) Government-linked platforms.
The first is just simply between private individuals. You talking to your friend is a private platform. Organizing student groups for mutual sharing is also a private matter. Even street evangelizing I would put in this category. Here, most people will have no problem allowing such religious expression, however much they feel personally uncomfortable. After all, they have the option to just walk away.
The second is still undertaken by private individuals, though on a platform that a much wider audience has access to. Examples of religious speech on public platforms would be ending non-SC annoucements with “God bless”, or promoting a religion on TV or in the newspaper. Here, the potential for controversy is much greater. Most people will be okay with non-SC announcements ending with “God bless”, recognizing it as a private decision for the group. However, most people will find it questionable to allow free for all religious expression in public platforms like TV, radio or newspapers.
The third, government linked platforms, is where the platform in question has some connection with the government, and where speech in the platform would seem to have tacit governmental endorsement. SC-announcements would fall under this platform, as will a speech given by a public servant in an official setting. It is here that I say that there is a very important issue that we must all consider.
Government-linked platforms signal tacit governmental endorsement. Thus, when religious expression is allowed on such platforms, the symbolic meaning is that the government endorses this particular religious viewpoint. Since putting up posters in school would count as a government-linked platform, the issue that I am raising pertains to this.
There seems to be a broad consensus in Singapore that we should not allow religious expresion in very public platforms like newspapers. That debate is a familiar one. However, we are not so used to the debate on religious expression in government linked platforms. It is precisely for this reason that I am now raising this issue.
5. What exactly are my views on religion and freedom and expression? Where would I draw the line?
I will now state my stand very clearly.
First, religious expression on private platforms is perfectly fine, as are anti-religious expression.
Two, religious expression on public platforms is okay if it is within a self-contained group like the school (hence I am fine with non-SC announcements ending with “God bless”). On public platforms such as the wider mass media, I am much more cautious about allowing religious speech. However, I would say that in both types of public platforms religious expression is okay if and only if anti-religious speech is also allowed.
Three, both religious expression and anti-religious expression on government linked platforms is an absolute no-no. The first is a breach of the secular constitution of our country, and I will fight to uphold it. The second is religious persecution, which I will not stand for either.
Fourth, the posters in school constitute a form of religious expression on a government linked platform. However, I made the allowance for the fact that the posters were not explictly religious and concluded that the posters were okay (I think some of you may have missed this point).
Now, I want to make a new point. If the PE department (usually in charge of such poster stuff) did not know of the posters, then it’s fine. If the PE department knew about the posters, but saw it as okay because it’s not explicity religious, then that’s fine as well. However, if the PE department saw it as religious expression, but allowed it anyway, then I would say that we have a problem on our hands.
Perhaps some of you from we are very happy would like to shed some light on the process of putting up the posters?
I would now like to move on to another very common theme in the comments: on the idea of imposition of religious values.
6. What exactly do I mean when I speak of the religious imposing their values?
“Also, i do not fancy the idea of the government showing privilege to a certain religion either (even if its Christianity) because we respect other religions” – Wayne
“i don’t agree with their lifestyle, but it’s their life, not mine.” -whyon
I feel that I must stress this: evangelism is not an imposition of values. When I say that religious people (not all, as I think whyon has shown if he means what I think he means) tend to impose their values on the country, I mean something different. Perhaps it is best if I explained using the example of homosexuality in Singapore.
“I deeply believe that homosexuality is wrong, for reasons A, B and C. Therefore, I believe that homosexuality should be banned and descriminated against, despite the fact that this will inflict suffering on actual people.”
If you believe in the quotation above, then you are probably one who would have signed the petition against the repealing of Section 377a, an antiquated law against gay sex. It is these people whom I would say are imposing upon other people.
As I have continually tried to point out, it is one thing to believe that homosexuality is wrong. It is another thing to believe that homosexuality should not even be allowed. What mediates between the two beliefs should be considerations about whether other people have the right to live their lives as they choose/are, and whether or not the act of banning will result in real suffering amongst these people.
However, what I tend to see in the religious is complete disregard for such tangible harm done to actual people. This disregard stems from a hidden assumption that “my values are more important than the welfare of others”. This assumption probably arises from yet another assumption that “my values are God’s values, and nothing is more important than God’s values”.
Therefore, if you want to know if you are the imposing type or non-imposing type of religious person, simply ask yourself this: “I believe X is wrong. Can I accept that other people should at least be allowed (not encouraged) to do X, if X is important to their welfare and does not harm others in a direct and tangible manner?” If you answer yes, then you would be a non-imposing type of religious person.
I believe that in every religious community, there will be some who will be imposing and non-imposing. This test question reveals much. Replace X with “pornography”, or “interracial marriage”, or even “believing in another God”. Play around with the test question, and see what it reveals about your own tendencies to impose on others.
Whyon, I get the sense that you are of the non-imposing type. Wayne, it is not sufficient that you say that you respect other people’s beliefs and way of life. Ask yourself if you could accept it that the laws of the land actually permit these ways of life that you disagree with. To any religious person out there, please prove my belief that most religious people are of the imposing type wrong.
7. Why am I worried about the rising tide of Christian evangelism?
“christians just want to share the good things they have with others, they do not mean us any harm” -Johnathan Tan
To me, it does not matter whether or not the religious mean any harm. What matters, is whether they actually do any harm. To that, my short answer is: yes, a fair bit. Much less in Singapore than in other countries, though that might be due in large part to the level of political power of the religious in Singapore compared to other countries. The claim that religions are harmful is a highly contentious one, and one which was not the intention of this post but of this post (I warn that the style of writing there is far more informal). But in short: I believe that religions are harmful because a) they promote irrationality, and b) they promote intolerance.
So why am I personally worried? Firstly, because Christian evangelism will lead to more religiosity, which I believe is harmful. Secondly, from what we can see from the evangelistic brand of Christianity in places like the US, this brand of Christianity tends to lead to the more imposing type of Christians, who tend to be even more harmful than usual.
I stress that I do not think that governments should ban religions, or that they should disallow religious speech. I cannot stress this enough. However, what I do think is that people should not be uncritical towards the impact on society religions have. This is an important issue that people should think about. I could be terribly mistaken about all that I have written. But it is in the spirit of raising important issues and dealing with them robustly, no matter the subject matter, that I have written all that I have.
August 27, 2008 at 1:38 am |
my my… what a LOOOooooong comment there, daryl. That might as well have been two or three GP essays all put in one. Guess that’s why you took KI then, eh?
Anyway, I’d like to share some thoughts.
You call ‘faith’ ‘blind belief’… I’d say that in a way you are right. Faith requires one to believe in stuff that they do not see. In the case of Christianity, we do not SEE God… But we DO see His works in action. I do not know whether you’ve heard of many miracles happening in many places. People living on despite being given a month or two left by doctors; sudden disappearance of some terminal diseases and; at the extreme… people being raised from the dead! I think human logic CAN explain many things but as humans are imperfect, so is our logic, no?
“The fact that our Earth is so rich in life can be explained by natural selection and Evolution. The fact that life exists at all can be explained by the anthropic principle”
I don’t know about others but I tend to think of this as what you called ‘blind belief’ as well. The ‘faith’ in human deductions. I mean… Natural selection… Evolution… The anthropic principle… “Our present universe is of course the only one we can ever actually observe, but we can speculate about such things as the probability that our universe formed within the finely tuned limits that support human life”(Wikipedia). All these are just hypothesis and theories from many thinkers, are they not? There hasn’t been any experiments or proof that actually PROVE these ideas. Natural selection and evolution are deduced from all the stuff they discover from dead stuff in the ground, or from the genes of primeapes and whatnot… But it’s never been seen taking place, right? How many people do you know were half an ape at 2 years old? Why didn’t other fellow chimpanzees and monkeys evolve to become the ‘more intelligent’ us if we already managed to come this far a few milleniums ago? I find it VERY hard to believe in ‘chance’. Even the teaching of statistics over the past half a year has left me very unconvinced as it is all about ‘probability’. In this respect, mathematics(concocted by humans) itself cannot be sure but can only give a number of decimals describing the likelihood of something happening. Just throwing a pair of dice around shows that probability itself is experimentally flawed.
“faith is blind belief: belief despite a lack of evidential justification.”
Just because scientists THINK that they’ve actually figured the things out though they haven’t and everyone accept what they stated doesn’t mean it should be taken as evidence then, no? Isn’t all this just ‘blind belief’ in human logic? Do correct me if I’m wrong(including the previous paragraph as well).
This paragraph is just for fun. “If we were in Ancient Greece, you would be believing in Zeus.”. I beg to differ. I think even Christianity was taking root then already. (“Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes” ~ Acts 14:12) In fact, a large part of the book of Acts revolved around the Greek community!
Anyway… Back to serious’er’ stuff.
“I believe X is wrong. Can I accept that other people should at least be allowed (not encouraged) to do X, if X is important to their welfare and does not harm others in a direct and tangible manner?”
What if I accept that are ALLOWED to do X, but wish that they could refrain from it and therefore share my thoughts with them? If it’s wrong, then am I wrong to at least tell them that what they’re doing(at least in my humble opinion) is wrong? Is it being imposing if you hear someone scolding vulgarities(which isn’t exactly sth right morally, just that it’s so common it’s taken with a pinch of salt now.), and you ask someone to refrain from it… Is that imposing my view on them, though I still ALLOW them to do so should they ignore my words, or can I even be considered as being responsible? This is really a question. Do answer. I’d like to see your point of view.
“Moreover, ‘personal religious experiences’ can be explained by psychosocial factors.”
I’m sorry but I’d like to comment on this as well. It IS true, I’m sure, that many of the ‘religious experiences’ really stem from psychosocial factors as you said. However, there are ALSO many other instances that you just CAN’T say it’s due to humans that stuff happen. Like… Visions. (I can see some people rolling their eyes now…) It can’t really be explained when one happens to say sth random to someone else, with nothing linking to it at all, and hit spot-on on the person’s personal issues. (you can stop rolling your eyes now…)
I can’t think of other stuff to say anymore for now. Darn sleepy le…
Anyway, thanks for all the comments, everyone. I like being mentally challenged(as in… challenging my mind, not becoming mentally ill(: ). Thanks, most of all, to you, Daryl. It’s nice to get new perspectives on religion and not be listening to all ‘yes, sir’, agreeing on anyth when it comes to religion.
Once again, I still think that this may never reach a conclusion should this continue. :)
“Finally, I like reading comments. So please feel free to comment!”
I think this must be one of your favourite posts so far… Garnering SOooooOooo many comments. :P Have a nice “study (back-)breaking” 2 weeks!
Just my humble opinions…
August 27, 2008 at 1:53 am |
This seems like I’m like, totally trivialising this thing, but.. this is amusing. Seriously. Anyway, like.. while it’s really interesting to have a nice long discussion about religion once in awhile, if you have irreconcilable differences in your opinions that are fundamental to your belief systems, there’s no point in attempting to debate and come to a compromise that no one like, wants to come to. Debating is, above all, persuasive.
Anyway, just wanted to point out that religion does exacerbate social divides, between believers and non-believers, even if they are of other religions. It happens even if they don’t mean to or serve to, and is especially likely to occur in monotheistic religions, which are dominated by one figure which commands absolute respect and power in the lives of the faithful. The abrasive tendencies of the Abrahamic religions and their followers towards almost all other cultures is something that all religious groups have to bear in mind while attempting to share their joy and gift of faith, for there are a lot of other issues at play here, not just freedom of expression or homosexuality as Daryl has pointed out. Lives have been lost because of faith, and they no doubt will be in the future, for despite existing on the same fundamentals, religions like the Abrahamic faiths are absolute in their rejection of other faiths, and this is dangerous.
While I’m not suggesting that students are going to start rioting or anything, initiatives that are spreading the word about any faith should be done in the subtlest possible way in any educational institution that is not religiously affiliated. There are still going to be people who will be affected by it, potentially negatively, and while I have no doubt that it arose out of good intentions, I have to admit that as a Victorian, I am impressed with this initiative that has been taken, yet ambivalent about it because it implicitly assumes that religious lines do not exist in school. Fact is, they could, and not everyone’s comfortable in an environment in which people are actively evangelising, or asking people to seek them out. While the choice lies with the people to seek them out, I don’t believe the publicity is necessary. And while it is up to the other religious groups to then utilise their own freedom of speech to conduct their own activities, some of them just have innately non-evangelistic natures (using the word evangelistic in a looser and potentially inaccurate way – that the active conversion of non-believers). As such, it is important to note that the freedom exists for everyone, but some religions are just not as… enthusiastic as the christian faith, for lack of a better word.
The best thing that has come out of this is perhaps that the school isn’t sanctioning anything or lending official support, but rather facilitating discourse and freedom of expression by allowing the posters to be put up and to remain up in the first place. Woohoo! Bravo! (No, I am not being sarcastic here, for once. Go me.)
August 27, 2008 at 3:35 am |
aaron i agree with you.
August 27, 2008 at 6:57 pm |
to daryl: nope, the PE dept had no idea we were gonna put up the posters :)
God bless you whoever who reads this and may His peace be with you as you study! live life in the light of eternity :)
August 27, 2008 at 10:09 pm |
I am going to stop commenting about this because its quite pointless to argue with a wall.
Im sorry if i sound rude, but in saying that i am just mimiking you in how you ‘justify’ and classify what you write under the notion of free speech.
i am upset that you are making so many one-sided arguments about controversial issues because if you say that what you ” tend to see in the religious is complete disregard for such tangible harm done to actual people”, you are saying that christians are not actual people as well? You mean to say spewing vulgarities, allowing gays to explicitly show their sexuality, and what not are not tangible harm done to christians, who, might i add, ARE ACTUAL PEOPLE. And i dont think christians are the only ones against this gay thing..
so anyway if you’ve started this debate intending to win and over argue anyone else (even though you keep denying it), then go ahead and claim your debate crown because i really don’t wish to continue this any further. it is not going to change your mind anyway so what for?
if you started this to feel more self assured that you’ve chosen the right belief then go ahead and continue with it.
and if you started this tirade because you have something against christianity because you see something lacking in yourself, then i hope you take a step back and check what your underlying intentions are.
and im sorry if this offends you, even though what you’ve written in the name of free speech and open debate has just about offended me in anyway possible.
yet, i will forgive you and wish you well in your life. we do not see the wind, but how do we know it exists? we feel it.
then you will say that there is proof for its existence. it arises due to the pressure gradient force.
then were does the pressure come from?
molecules.
where does molecules come from? atoms? protons?
what makes you so sure that what we’ve discovered is true?
now, why do you think we are so sure what we believe in is true?
blindly believing? i dont think so.
August 27, 2008 at 10:16 pm |
and then you’re prolly gonna type another whole long thing justifying/clarifying/arguing/whatever.
please prove me wrong.
and even if you dont believe it, may God bless you.
August 27, 2008 at 10:22 pm |
hi daryl and friends =) i would like to say that im truly sorry for saying God bless after announcements once. It was done in a moment of irrationality. haha. and i just wanna say that i absolutely believe in free will. As for the posters, we dont wish to impose our believes on non-christians. Just like what melodie said, we’ve all got something to be joyful about and we just wanna share it i guess. simple as that =) im sorry if we appeared to be overly ‘enthusiastic’ and pushy about our faith. That wasnt our original intent. yeap, so take care and see you in school.
August 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm |
if you’re gonna live like God doesn’t exist, you’d better be right
August 27, 2008 at 11:49 pm |
hey(: i don’t really want to say much, fearing that i might say something that will offend anyone. but hey, daryl and all the people here, it’s hard to prove that God is true, but there’s one thing that you can’t argue about, which is the testimony of us Christians. haha(: Anyway, yea, i shan’t say anymore.
To all the J2s, all the best for your prelims(:
God bless(:
August 27, 2008 at 11:50 pm |
Hey Jeanne,
Don’t worry about it. It wasn’t that big a deal since it was just a one time thing. I wasn’t directing anything at you, just speaking about SC announcements in general. Yup.
August 27, 2008 at 11:50 pm |
Hello Joanne,
You have nothing to apologize for: I am not offended in any way. Normally, I would apologize for offending people,since my intentions are merely to provide food for thought. However, I do not ask for your “forgiveness”, nor do I require it. To stress that I in no way accept your moral high horse, I will not bow to it. I will simply deal with the issues you have raised, as I always have.
“You mean to say spewing vulgarities, allowing gays to explicitly show their sexuality, and what not are not tangible harm done to christians, who, might i add, ARE ACTUAL PEOPLE. And i dont think christians are the only ones against this gay thing..”
Yes. Yes, I mean to say that allowing gays and lesbians to “show their sexuality” is not tangible harm done to Christians. I agree that it is not a easy to qualify what is meant by tangible harm. But most of us share some general principles. Someone who seeks self pleasure by raping others has clearly harmed someone. Someone who goes around shouting verbal abuse at people might still be causing some tangible harm, but it is less obvious. Someone who merely spews vulgarities mindlessly in every other sentence, doesn’t seem to be causing much harm. And someone who merely holds the hand of someone else of the same sex, minding his or her own business, does not cause you tangible harm however much you say you are traumatized. There is a gradient, which any normal, decent person should be able to see.
Note that we are not even talking about “explicitly showing their sexuality”. Section 377a disallows gay sex even between consensual adults in the privacy of their own bedrooms. Here, we begin to understand the religious mind (or maybe it’s just your mind?): the mere thought that the laws of the land allow other people to do things that you do not agree with constitutes “harm”. Well, if that is your notion of harm, then I rest my case that religions promote intolerance.
“and if you started this tirade because you have something against christianity because you see something lacking in yourself, then i hope you take a step back and check what your underlying intentions are.“
Again, we observe how a religious mind operates.
Just because someone does not agree with Christianity, he must “see something lacking in himself”. Just because someone does not agree with a religion, he must “have something against Christianity” and everything he does has a hidden agenda. Christians like to see themselves as victims no matter what: when other people fight for their own freedom, they are “harmed”. When the appropriateness of their religious activities are questioned, that person must be out to get them. I have continuously stated why I am writing what I am writing. If you do not believe me then so be it.
To tkl and Aaron, I will respond to your comments soon. I’ve already started thinking about the things you guys have raised, but I wanted to deal with this comment first.
August 27, 2008 at 11:53 pm |
“if you’re gonna live like God doesn’t exist, you’d better be right”
Well, if you’re gonna live like the Christian God exists, you better be right too. After all, you wouldn’t want Zeus giving you the Prometheus treatment in the afterlife. =p
August 28, 2008 at 12:23 am |
First of all, I’m impressed with your post, especially the long list of comments, and in your ability to bring some light to somewhat controversial issues.
However, I would like to remind you that taking a stand is one thing, but examining an issue from a balanced perspective is another. To me, personally, it seems that you have failed to fulfil the second role. For example, while it’s hard, perhaps impossible, to prove that God exists (and that is why Christianity, or any other religion, is founded on faith), it is hard to prove that God does not exist. What if you believed in some religion, what would your stand be? The fact that we do/do not adhere to some religion taints the way we see things in a logical/rational way. This means that someone who does not believe in any religion is biased too, and shows in the way this “debate” has played out.
This is the reason why issues pertaining to relgion/non-religion cannot be discussed rationally. Religion is founded on faith and logically, ironically, the truthfulness of its views cannot be discussed in relation to logic.
I’m not sure if you remember the long debate we had about religion and expression of religious/atheist opinion in T23 quite some time back, which spiraled from a few comments. A huge random group of IP students discussing these issues till the evening, with no resolution found in the end. That is why I believe any debate about such issues is unfounded and also why our government refrains from taking sides – hence, our status as a “secular state” – not that the government believes in no relgion (even some ministers have religions), but believes in not sparking off such a debate.
But anyway, thanks for an engaging read, I hope my comments bring some light to this issue like you did.
August 28, 2008 at 1:34 am |
hello daryl! (and various torch/pitchfork wielding netizens)
well i guess im a little slow on the uptake with this whole debate, and admittedly there’s been a whole lot of serious words and lenghty discussions being exchanged around here so i’m a little wary of appearing too frivolous, but the topic of religion and free-speech is a little too exciting for me to miss, so here goes-
as an atheist/FSM believer myself, i’d say that my views echo yours to some extent- i was initially intrigued by the posters but i did feel a mini knee-jerk reaction when i found out the source and intention of them, just as i did with regards to the inspirational notes earlier.
while it was a very thoughtful and sweet gesture to think of the rest of the school population’s spiritual wellbeing, as a non-believer i did feel slightly uncomfortable about this, because of the nature of christianity and how it seeks to “save” people. As a consequence i find that the posters and to a lesser extent (considering the intentions) the notes were rather insensitive, especially to the other students who already have their own religious beliefs.
While it is perfectly understandable why atheists (such as myself) might feel riled at such public displays of faith, i think we should all take time to realise that christianity is not the only religion around, and we do have friends who are Muslims, Skihs, Buddhists, Hindus, et cetera. And if anyone, i think they feel even more uncomfortable than the atheist when people publicly mention God, as it seems to be the case, like when CCAs go on stage and thank God for their achievements. Put simply, and bluntly, i dont think it’s nice when Christians display their faith in settings which are supposedly secular. It’s just not fair to people of other faiths, because as far as i’ve witnessed, their beliefs have not been taken into consideration at all.
The problem as i see it, is that in this supposedly socially elite setting of our school, where Christianity appears to be fairly dominant even among the teaching population, people start taking for granted that it’s alright to forget that people out there dont necessarily share your views. And no im sorry, with all due respect, we arent interested in hearing them either.
That’s all i really had to say really. I didnt comment to join in the faith/logic debate because that one’s pretty much a gonner for me, but i just felt pretty strongly about the (in)sensitivity about the whole publicity. Admittedly i’ve only just appreciated the open-free-speech aspect of it all because quite frankly those posters were making me rather uncomfortable indeed.
Of course i think the solution to bad speech is more speech, (in as calm and polite a manner as physically possible) and i’ve definitely had thoughts about possible answers to “we-are-very-happy” myself. The FSM idea would have been pure genius though.
Im happy being unhappy, i guess. Cheerio!
August 28, 2008 at 7:01 am |
Hey Mark,
To me, taking a balanced perspective is not about believing the claims of both sides. That would be being inconsistent. “On one hand this, one the other hand that… So?” Taking a balanced perspective is about dealing with all objections and not misrepresenting the other side’s arugment. That is what I have tried to do.
Unless, of course, you merely read my post without reading the comments that I have made. The question of whether God exists is not one I set out to address in my post, but I have dealt with it in my subsequent comments.
Yes, I completely agree that we cannot conclusively prove the non-existence of God. But we cannot conclusively prove the non-existence of anything. We all accept the general principle of not believing in entities that we have no evidence for: you do not believe that invisible fairies fly around your room, do you? The question then is why believe this entity God, more specifically the Christian God, exists? For an elaboration on the rational problems of faith, please read my comments above.
But a more serious charge you levy is saying that believing or not believing in religion somehow “taints” your logical faculties. This is relativism, pure and sweet. You then have to explain why and how exactly we are “tainted” by our belief/non belief and cease to be logical beings the moment we talk about religion. If you cannot justify that very bold claim, I’m afraid you are merely sprouting nonsense.
If you truly believe that religion is based on faith (ie, blind belief), then so be it. You would accept that religion is irrational. Yet people in the past and now like to try to base their belief on a rational basis. As you can see, people like saying things like “Oh, the wind… My God must exist”.
But you cannot have things both ways: either religion is based on faith, and you believe in God despite the lack of sufficient evidence. Or, religion is not based on faith, and you believe in God because of sufficient evidence. Take your pick.
Yeah, I do remember that day. However, I do not remember us talking about religious expression. I seem to recall talking about the logical implications of believing in God: such as the impossibility of free will, and just mainly talking about various aspects of belief. I could hardly have been promulgating atheistic views because I wasn’t an atheist then. I was probably just raising the numerous problems I found with the Christian theology: problems for me, as a would-be believer.
August 28, 2008 at 11:45 am |
Hi all!
I believe it is somewhat necessary to recap on several points that have come repeatedly over the course of this debate.
Firstly, it must be noted that many ( if not all) of the “we are happy people” have expressed that their original intention of putting the posters up was not to cause strife/ division/ tension/ unease within the school community. Instead Joanne said she wanted to encourage people, Wayne said he wanted to show his fellow Victorians that there are people who care for them and Melodie, Jon Tan and Jeanne said they intended to spread the joy, and so on.
Perhaps they did not fully consider the repercussions of their actions. If they did, they may not have realized that it had the potential to incite such a reaction from the online community. However, they did do so out of the the care they had for their fellow school mates and this fact should at least be applauded.
Then perhaps another should rebut this, saying that it is not possible for the ordinary student to recognize their intentions. The posters have the potential to send the wrong message, that of blatant evangelism.(Even though the happy people did not blatantly say that they were a christian group, or cite and christian references on their posters)
To this point, i believe that many of us now know to think twice before we do anything in public spheres. Just as to how the Singaporean and Ni-cole have pointed out, they feel uncomfortable with such activities going on around them and it should not be forgotten that different people look upon different things differently. Therefore, i believe that a take-away from this whole debate would be for people to be more aware of people around us. Just as how christian groups should be aware of how others might be uncomfortable, non-Christians should also be aware that we do not wish to force you into believing something which you do not.
Finally i would like to add that this debate is a very positive sign of how many are open to discussing a topic that what one might consider to be a sensitive topic, especially in the multi-racial and Multi- religious Singapore.
Furthermore, that many are arguing their points and not just “slamming the opposition” shows how we as 18 year old Singaporean students have matured intellectually and socially.
jomtang(:
Plus: To all JC2, All the best for prelims and A’s! Peace be with you!
August 28, 2008 at 1:16 pm |
Taking a break from mathematics, decided to just take a quick peek at the situation here. Which seems to have expanded since our last conversation.
*grins*
You know what I would say already, and you know whom I would say it to.
*grins some more*
August 28, 2008 at 2:40 pm |
taking a break from studying too so just decided to check this discussion out! it has really gone a looong way man. anw, smth that disturbed me (i mean aside from all the issues on faith):
“And no im sorry, with all due respect, we arent interested in hearing them either.”
- nic-ole, dont wish to be rude but i dont think your “we” refers to the whole sch :) and if you’re happy being unhappy, we’re truly happy for you! :D (not being sarcastic)
i really have lots of thoughts about this discussion but i think it’s pointless to try bring them up. after all like what one of the comments said, logic and faith just don’t come together in any way& may i add- thankfully! cos i mean im sure none of us really understand why certain things happen in our lives etc. if left up to logic: we’re probably all unlucky doomed stupid or things along that line at certain points in our life. so i guess we happy people just chose to have faith. Because we had faith, we then gained understanding (like what Random passerby pointed out) so it’s really a whole different approach to life. dont see how this discussion can come to a conclusion. heh.
i know you logical ppl respect us and we honestly respect you too :)
so.. yeah,not sure what’s the point of my post. haha but i just had to voice my thoughts i guess. okay now back to studying :/ haha study hard friends!
August 28, 2008 at 7:40 pm |
Well I guess it’s all an issue of faith and where it lies. While I echo your opinions, I have to say that the ‘other side’ (most posters here being christian I assume?) have provided some really thought-provoking responses.
Religion, as I see it, as an agnostic sees it, appears as nothing more than a tool to view the world, a narrative which adds an optimistic touch (christianity at least) to humanity, which may not necessarily be a bad thing altogether. However, to impose such a narrative upon another, is akin to forcing someone else to wear your shades (even if it is bright yellow and exudes an aura of happiness). Therefore, I do agree that the ‘imposition of the values of one religion on the rest of us is (unacceptable)’. ‘Tyranny’, however, will be a tad extravagant in its usage.
Directed to the posters:
Anyway, as for the debate between faith and logic, I guess it all boils down to a matter of have and have-nots, or perhaps, more aptly described as the presence vs. the absense of. Let’s take for example light vs. darkness. The concept of darkness does not exist without the presence of light, as darkness is merely the absence of the latter. Similarly, the ‘lack of faith’, or non-religiousity, does not exist without ‘faith’(religion, in parallel), and by that very virtue, ‘to be lacking of’ anything, faith in this case, is au naturel. That is the very basis of my agnostic beliefs and I hope that has shed some light to why religion should exist only as a private affair.
P.S. I’m not saying that religion is unnatural, but rather, it should a personal opinion kept to the individual alone, or within collective individuals with similar insights.
August 29, 2008 at 12:25 am |
HELLO DARYL! My sister (Diane Tan) made me read this. I have no idea what point she was trying to make. She also requested that I left a comment! And so this is it. In actual fact, I’m really proud of my little sister! She’s a lot wiser than I was at her age. What I’m learning from my own faith (and I think something my sister has already come to terms with) is that as a follower of Christ, I do not have a monopoly on morality (borrowing words from Sen. Obama) and am no better than you are. To put myself or my faith on a pedestal and frown upon your beliefs would seem to me contrary to what I have been taught through the Bible but then again, I am just journeying through this as well, learning and unlearning all sorts of things everyday. I am quite sure I’ll never know it all and won’t pretend I do. I suppose I remain content knowing that a higher power will take care of that all!
Diane always tells me that you are a very nice person and all you want to do is express your opinions and mean no harm to people. Just thought it’ll do you good to say that you express them very eloquently and reasonably and if ever we get the chance, would love to sit down and discuss various ideas (with no agenda except maybe if you gave my sister some IQ so she doesn’t have to worry about flunking exams).
HI DIANE I LEFT A COMMENT. HAPPY??? :) Love you.
Be talking to you again soon if Diane makes me do it, Daryl! Good luck for your As!!!!!
XO
Dawn
August 29, 2008 at 1:18 am |
hello daryl!
actually i came to ask about the SC announcement (haha, that’s my concern) and then i remembered when.
i agree, we are secular and ought to stay that way.
anyway, after reading this whole thing (and not looking at the time), i just want to say that i’m slightly amused by this:
“..After all, you wouldn’t want Zeus giving you the Prometheus treatment in the afterlife. =p”
daryl, lol!
August 29, 2008 at 8:06 pm |
Hey Dawn, it’s nice to hear from you. Me myself, I am always willing to relearn as well. Whenever I bring up a so called controversial topic, I expect to hear challenging opposition to my view. I find that whether or not I am convinced by that opposing view, my own view becomes clearer, sharper and refined.
Hope to hear from you again. Thanks for your well wishes. =)
August 29, 2008 at 8:09 pm |
Hey Dhilshad,
Haha I suppose I should feel honored that you read my post. Oh, and I liked that line too! I always thought that Prometheus was a real hero, you know, giving us fire and all.
August 29, 2008 at 8:09 pm |
Hey tkl,
Actually, when I said “Ancient Greece”, I meant the period of Greek history lasting from 1100 BC to 146 BC. That would be 146 years before Christ. While Acts may have revolved around the Greek community, they couldn’t have revolved around the Ancient Greek community. Haha. But let me deal with the issues you raised.
So is there evidence for God? What exactly would count as evidence for God?
“But we DO see His works in action. I do not know whether you’ve heard of many miracles happening in many places. People living on despite being given a month or two left by doctors; sudden disappearance of some terminal diseases and; at the extreme… people being raised from the dead!”
By your logic, anything that we do not understand would count as being “evidence for God”. Anything “miraculous”, that cannot be explained, would be hailed as evidence for God. This is a worshiping of gaps in our knowledge. We cannot explain X, therefore X must be caused by God, therefore God exists.
This way of thinking kills rational thought, which supports my belief that religion promotes irrationality. Imagine if mankind was forever satisfied by that explanation. “Oh, I wonder why it rains. I cannot explain it, it is a miracle! It must be caused by God!” I am glad that there were some thinkers who saw that this was not a satisfactory explanation, and sought genuine explanations.
Of course we do not know everything. Hell, maybe we don’t even know most things. Admissions of ignorance and temporary mystification are vital to good science. It motivates us to discover more about the world. To say that not having perfect knowledge is evidence for God is both illogical and mind-numbing.
But let’s say I accept everything you say in that quote. We do not know how X, Y, Z happened, hence God must exist. You are still not showing how the Christian God must exist. I could just as easily say, “You know that dude who recovered from cancer after doctors gave him 1 month, the Flying Spaghetti Monster touched him with his noodly appendage.” And my claim would be just as valid as yours.
So what would count as evidence for God? The simple answer: He comes down to meet us. But I must say, even if an omnipotent, omniscient being appeared before my very eyes, I would say that he exists yes, but I would not say that I must obey him. That would depend on what he/she/it actually says and does.
“What if I accept that are ALLOWED to do X, but wish that they could refrain from it and therefore share my thoughts with them?”
Well, you say that you accept that they are allowed to do X, but what that truly means is that if someone asks you to support a law that will forbid them from doing X, you would be against such a law as it would infringe on their freedom to do X. If your answer is yes, then I would say that you are a non-imposing type even if you just share your thoughts with them. Sharing your thoughts with them is perfectly fine.
August 29, 2008 at 10:44 pm |
Daryl, man, if you only listen to arguments for God from uninformed, uneducated, caught-up-in-the-splendour-of-the-moment Christians, what kind of argument do you expect to get?
Have every right to get angry at idiots putting for idiotic, unjustified arguments. Just don’t take that to be the whole of the matter, k?
i know this isn’t what you’re looking for, but if you want to attack arguments for God or Christianity in particular, go read books by people like Josh Mcdowell, Bruce Metzger and much older guys like Simon Greenleaf and even St. Augustine. Attack arguments worth attacking and IGNORE THOSE THAT ARE JUST A BLATANT WASTE OF TIME.
i’m not the best person to attack either, ’cause i’m not really the most informed, enlightened Christian. But i try.
And note, i’m not arguing with you hear. i’m just telling you not to waste your time.
August 29, 2008 at 11:00 pm |
Hulloa again.
Sorry, it’s ‘here’ and not ‘hear’ in that last line of me previous post.
Daryl, post 41, man! ‘Oh, the wind…My God must exist!’ Love that! Makes it sound like the hypothetical person either thinks that a friend farting is a proof of God or that God’s farts (that’s a pretty strange idea itself, God farting…there a nicer word for ‘fart’?) are really nice. grin.
August 29, 2008 at 11:14 pm |
Hmm.. well Daryl, I did read through your comments. I guess I’ll just refrain from commenting anymore because this is the sort of debate that seems to have no end for me. That was the point I was trying to make with the anecdote. I’ve found it impossible to reconcile the different, all seemingly valid perspectives with my own. To me, any debate about religion leads nowhere. Sure, we’ve gained lots of insights, but… the end? But, enough said, so, anyway, just wanna wish you and everyone else all the best for prelims! Take care!
August 30, 2008 at 1:27 am |
Maybe i can share some of my responses as a Christian myself. I guess you could call me the non-imposing sort. and i definitely know of others who would rather “evangelise” (if it is even classified as that) through how they lead their lives according to the Christian faith.
Perhaps you could question my being a Christian, but i cringe whenever i hear a particular CCA thank God openly on stage in front of the whole school. Deep inside, i do feel that sense of discomfort that probably non-believers do. i believe the reason for that is because i think that is not the right platform for us to show our gratitude to God even if he was possibly the reason for the success. However, i must stress that i do not deny my own faith. Rather, it’s more of the appropriateness of the setting. Can you imagine if a group of muslims or any other religion for that matter, go up on stage and thank their specific God? i think it’s almost the same thing as us Christians doing it on stage. I would feel SUPER uncomfortable if that ever happened, honestly.
Secondly, while the intentions of the group involved have been made clear, i also do know of other christians who do not outrightly approve or support such a “movement”. for myself, i’m still undecided on that.
August 30, 2008 at 6:56 pm |
Hey whyon (Wei An?),
Haha I’m not angry at the people who comment here, nor do I think that they are idiots. In fact, I think they are people perfectly capable of clear, rational thought. It is only when it comes to their religion, that rational people tend to suspend that rationality.
As for proper arguments, I suppose I wouldn’t mind reading some of them. Though I am familiar with St Augustine’s arguments.
And I totally did not think about the farting reference! Wholly unintended.
August 31, 2008 at 12:36 am |
Uh-huh, it’s Wei-An here. The farting reference came from me own twisted mind, it’s ok. Really found it very amusing, in a good way.
And yeah, i agree that lotsa Christians out there do suspend their rationality when it comes to their faith. What some people call the ‘Hillsongs Generation.’ For those who don’t know, Hillsongs is a Christian music group from one of the huge churches in Australia. i personally feel that their music is a lot of hype and good-feeling; like a Christian version of Click 5, out there to sell albums rather than make music with meaning. (Is the Click 5’s music art? Is it good art? Do their intentions in making their music demean the music itself? i think it does. And thus it applies to Hillsongs too. More the United Live, youth wing of Hillsongs, i think the adult wing is quite alright.)
To a lot of Christians out there, faith is about feeling good, finding comfort in life. Sure, that can be a reason, but there’s so much more to the Christian faith than that. Christopher Hitchens, i think it was(i could be wrong), in his book ‘God is not Great’ said that his teacher telling his class that they’ll really be glad they have God when hard times come is one of the things that put him off God and faith. But that’s the way things are for a lot of Christians, i feel.
And if you have the time and are interested, Josh Mcdowell’s ‘More Evidence That Demands a Verdict’ is a pretty good book on Christian apologetics. Reading it now for my IS. grin. There’s a lot of stuff out there, actually. But yeah, as all humans are biased in one way or another, i recognise that in some of these books, the assumption that God exists and such is pretty prominent and might be annoying for a non-Christian reader. It’s annoying me when i try to read it for KI. grin.
August 31, 2008 at 12:41 am |
And about Hillsongs and the Click 5, it’s just my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree, anyone. We can have a field day talking about it. grin.
August 31, 2008 at 1:25 am |
i post in bits and pieces, i know.
Clarifying note ’bout my most recent post before this: i really do believe what i said about Hillsongs and a significant number (not all) Christian youth today. i’ll give you reasons for my beliefs if you ask me, is what i meant in the above. Not retract my statement.
About the term ‘atheist.’ By definition, an atheist is a person who denies the existence of the supernatural (if supernatural deities are what you mean by supernatural).
An agnostic, on the other hand, like a skeptic, is one who suspends belief about the supernatural, accepting that something outside the realm of direct human experience might be there, just not believing in it. But not denying it’s existence.
Correct me if i’m wrong. i think you’re more of an agnostic than an atheist, judging by what you say bout not being dogmatic ’bout your lack of religious faith, Daryl.
Question: If i say that you’re an agnostic and not an atheist, am i imposing my beliefs upon you? grin.
Oh yeah. i got the definitions from a google search. The multiple definitions that pop up do agree with each other.
August 31, 2008 at 3:33 pm |
Dear Messrs Gay,
You mentioned,
- faith is not congruent to logic, (1)
” since when did faith need to mean something logical?”
- your wants are justified if it pertains to God, (2)
“dont think he needs us to pray. we just want to.”
- nothing needs a proper debate,(3) -> this, formally, does not address “something”, though it removes the possibility of “everything”. therefore, “something needs a proper debate, but at least one nothing needs an improper debate” or “everything needs an improper debate” or “nothing needs a proper debate” should categorise our areas of interest that you accept as firmly proved.
“Does everything need a proper debate?”
These are reasons behind your motivations that are unstated in your chosen doctrine. Thus, I arrive at an underlying assumption
- matters outside the doctrine can be morally justified (4)
I make the supposition too, that you are correct, and that you agree with your companion, Messrs Tan’s
- something awesome has to be shared
“it’s smth so awesome that anyone who Truly felt it would want to share it so ppl will be blessed too.it’s not a selfish thing”
Now, let us, hypothetically, suppose that a very perverted person exists. Of course, we know, anecdotally, that this is not an unfair assumption. Then, it follows that this person would find it selfish if one does not share whatever awesome things you feel so long as it pertains to God-enacted behavior, that is, anything in the path of causation and stochastic processes which you undergo in a christian lifestyle. I qualify my statement; his wants are justified so long as it pertains to God. (2)
From here, I am making the proposition here which you can falsify – I am guessing you will get married and have sex with a man. This is also supported by your belief that it is wrong to be gay, so I am assuming your allegiance is non-lesbian. Now, this is a Christian behaviour. For instance, nothing needs a proper debate, (3) therefore I do not blame you for having sex as it will lead to a debate. That is, I carry out an improper debate here. Besides, your wants are justified (2). So I am totally accepting this, on basis of faith rather than logic, that it is Christian behaviour.
Then let us suppose, this very perverted person, and for sake of having no proper debate (3), let’s just say that person is me as only I should be involved in improper debates. I qualify this statement; let’s just say I am perverted to the extent that I wish to see you enacting any Christian behaviour. It follows that, I have a justified want that pertains to something awesome that you have felt that is a Christian behaviour. Furthermore, I make the jump of faith that:
- Your life is awesome, courtesy of some supernatural entity.
- You have to be honest, as dictated by doctrine.
You’ll have to agree with me that any aspects should be shared. You will also have accept that your life is awesome, unless you do not believe it is awesome. If that is the case, it begs the question why you are even sharing anything – since you have nothing awesome to share by hypothesis. By definition too, I understand that notions of Christian behaviour, that is, notions inclusive of sex, are awesome. Hence, Messrs Gay, it follows from my faith that if you are consistent with your faiths then, you will have to either:
( A ) Share with me the moment of your sexual behaviour or notions of sex, possibly on tape because it is necessarily awesome, or us, if anyone else finds it awesome while having faith that it pertains to Christian behaviour.
or
( B ) Share with us that you will never have sex, nor had any notions of which. Now… picture a girl having sex with someone she loves – there you go, ( B ) is no longer possible.
( C ) Refuse to do ( A ) or lie about ( B ), then ask for forgiveness so as to fulfill the requirement to be honest, then share with us your refusal or lie, because you have to share, as required.
Now, you can say that what I’m saying is illogical. This poses no problem – by definition, we are concerned with a problem of faith, not logic. As preordained by accepting (4), as you do, we have eliminated any arguments grounded in the basis of logic. Now, Messrs Gay, I do not ask for any replies: if you don’t believe sex is awesome, then it means you exhibit at least one inconsistency in your belief in your doctrine. However, you could also
>> Commit that you will never have sex with a man, such that you do not have to share with anyone your awesome lifestyle. And by commit, you admit that you are a filthy, dishonest liar if you actually contradict your committment. (dishonesty by doctrine)
>> Make the powerful claim that you have never thought of sex, never masturbated etc. such that you do not have to share. But in so doing, it follows that IF you ever do so, i.e. you admit that you are a filthy, dishonest liar if you actually contradict your committment. (dishonesty by doctrine)
It is also necessary that you should not accidentally have make any awesome behaviour, i.e. something which a pervert would like to know that pertains to your lifestyle. That is, you are not to exhibit a wince of enjoyment in any sexual behaviour.
So, Messrs Gay, do you (honestly share that you) will ever enjoy sexual behaviour? Or are you dishonest to us, and your faith, generally? I am not making a statement about Christians in particular, I respect their beliefs, but I am just questioning if YOU are consistent with your beliefs.
August 31, 2008 at 4:59 pm |
Hey whyon,
“Correct me if i’m wrong. i think you’re more of an agnostic than an atheist, judging by what you say bout not being dogmatic ’bout your lack of religious faith, Daryl.”
Well, I don’t think there are three distinct categories of religious, agnostic or atheistic. On a scale of 1-7 of religiosity, where 1 is “I know there is a God”, and 7 is “I know there is no God”, I would put myself in 6.
As already said, I cannot be absolutely certain that there is no God, since it is logically impossible to prove the non-existence of anything. But I lead my life on the assumption that God does not exist, hence I call myself an atheist. For instance, you wouldn’t call yourself an agnostic on Flying Spaghetti Monster even if you cannot be absolutely certain it doesn’t exist. You’d just say that you simply do not believe in it. (An a-FSM-iest like an atheist).
I would say an agnostic is one who sees the probability of God and no God being equal, or around equal. Since I think that the probability of God is quite unlikely (given the lack of evidence), I wouldn’t call myself an agnostic though technically, if you define agnostic as being anywhere from 2-6 on my scale, I would be one.
Haha nah, you can call me whatever you want. I won’t say that you’re of the imposing type. If you tried to lobby the government to label me as such, though, then you’d be. =p
And I’m quite curious, though. Since you say many Christians do suspend their rationality, would you consider yourself one of those who do so? Or that your beliefs have a rational basis?
August 31, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
Lol Therapist, I am speechless..
August 31, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
therapist:
honestly, my engrish is bad so i cant really understand what you are talking about, and i am unable to engage in wordplay as all of you seem to be doing, which makes everything i say wrong because it is being quoted in different context anyway, so pardon my stupidity and blind faith.
however to address your issues on sex,
1. i am human, and i make mistakes. yet its by the grace of my God that i can repent and be set free by the bondage of sin because Christ shed His blood to cleanse us. this does not mean i carry on making same mistakes and sinning, but i try my best to live my life according to the Bible, by the standards God set.
2. Sex before marriage is wrong. Sex is a God-given gift to married couples so that we can have children.
3. Messrs Gay = Mrs Gay = my mother. if you think my reply is unsatisfactory and your post was addressed to my mother, i can get her to talk to you.
4. In saying what i just said, i dont think i am imposing any beliefs upon you, the reader, but im explaining myself as you have asked me to do.
5. I am breaking my own promise by commenting (Sorry God) so come talk to me if you want to know more, i wont impose anything on you.
6. Why are we spending so much time on this argument,when we should all be studying!
Okay have a nice day, good bye and God bless (those who want to be blessed only, otherwise im imposing my views, which is unacceptable)
okay bye! :)
August 31, 2008 at 6:45 pm |
Firstly, Messrs Gay, I commend your honesty. I believe then from your admission that you make mistakes, you are accepting that there will be at least a unit of debaucherous activity that will arise from marriage, which you in turn admit, you are most probable to engage.
My next question then, is addressed to all of you who are involved in the expression of your faiths:
It is said that, “…live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.” (Galatians 5:16) and “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery…” (Galatians 5:19)
That is, one who has true faith would never have sex for anything beyond reproduction – for that would meet the necessary desire of the flesh that constitutes a cardinal sin. This implies that, when you have sex with a spouse – it follows that it is sexual; the moment you come to be aware that any LEAST of it is gratifying, then it meets sufficient conditions to constitute sexual gratification i.e. desire of the flesh. Now, if you are truly convinced that God is right, then you will act so as not to commit this cardinal sin that is to arise. That is, you are guilty of sin so long as you act towards it, e.g. (1) using any contraception, e.g. condom or method of menstrual rhythm, (2) acquire even the SMALLEST gratification from spousal sex. For quantification of ’smallest’, picking your nose is already considered gratification, just that it isn’t sexual hence it isn’t a sin.
One may argue that sexual gratification between spouses improves the relationship, something you should do as decreed by God. However, that would be a misinterpretation. By nature of your doctrine, a single action has to meet all of God’s conditions for unsinful behaviour at the same time; and so long as one condition is not met, it is sin. You will have to say this is true; that is, unless you propose the extreme view that, for example, God allows murder (failing the condition that murder is wrong) on Sundays (while meeting the condition that you can rest on the sabbath) so long as you feel murdering allows you to feel rested.
One may argue that he/she “makes mistakes”, but God forgives. Valid – but not astute. Now, I used to be part of the apologetic movement, so I know your misconception here: the problem is one of PRECONCEIVED mistakes. Say, you already understand that it is sinful to murder, but you go ahead and murder one person, ask for forgiveness immediately, and murder another, and so on, is your massacre forgiven? No – it’s because you have preconceived that your mistake will be forgiven. Doesn’t make sense? Now, I am telling you ahead of time – you are going to enjoy sex for beyond its reproductive function. It is only natural. I’m giving you the benefit of doubt here – I’m not even going to go into obscene specifics of how you could have found a sensual gratification from accidental clitoral or vulvate contact and for just that instant, decide prolong that gratification (impurity). But even so, the situation looks bleak for you. If from this point on you acquire any sexual gratification, you have committed a preconceived sin.
To which I ask you all collectively, how did you come to convince yourself that you believe in God, when you aren’t actually convinced (as exemplified above)?
Your faith is only self-proclaimed (dishonesty?) – you are not logically consistent with what you believe that you believe in.
In other words, all of you who
- are dishonest, step forward.
- who are honest that you will end up in this path towards sexual gratification, step forward.
I think God is right – but YOU are wrong. The question is, who remains behind? What then are you trying to achieve?
August 31, 2008 at 8:59 pm |
Woah, hold your horses now, Therapist. That’s pretty fierce. i don’t think your theology is right, somehow, even though you say you used to be an apologist. Or you could be just pushing what people said to their logical conclusions here. But i really don’t wanna argue with you on a blog. It’s too difficult.
To Daryl. i’d say i’m a highly contradictory character, sorta, depending on your point-of-view. From a non-Christian perspective, you could say i suspend rationality when it comes to my faith. For me, a significant part of justification for my belief in God is what i ’see’ God doing in my life and the lives of those around me. It’s sound inductive reasoning (i think) aside from the presupposition of the existence of the Christian God. So yeah, from that perspective i suspend my rationality.
Rationality comes in when i try to justify this premise of the existence of God. The historicity of the Bible is one of the reasons why i believe that God exists. (No, i’m not assuming it’s historical reliability. i do read. There’s just quite a lot to be said about, too much for this post.) i know the Bible being an accurate historical document doesn’t necessitate the truth of its claims on the supernatural, but as it has been recognised in this discussion, it is hard to prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural.
Why do i still believe in Christianity? At the deepest level, i really don’t know. A multitude of reasons, including the assurance i get when i put my life into God’s hands, the love i share with fellow Christians, the things Christians have done for this planet (not to say non-Christians haven’t contributed), the faith and the sacrifices made by the multitudes who have preceded me, the fact that i can’t imagine any other cause of the whole universe except God.
From a non-believer’s point-of-view, i can understand that these would seem like ridiculous reasons for a belief in God. To me they make sense and not just in a common everyday manner, but after analysing and thinking about my faith. i can’t explain a lot of things including some of the reasons why i am a Christian but i do try my best to figure them out and to read up and learn.
So i guess you can say that i start with unjustified beliefs but for myself, i try to be as rational as possible about my faith and justify them rationally and somewhat empirically too. Some people might cite the “You must have faith like a child” verse to justify a lack of intelligent discourse about faith and religion. i think that’s a whole lot of hogwash. As a Christian, i believe God made humans intelligent and capable of rational thought and suspending this gift in any area of our lives is wasting a gift of God. In my perspective, we come to God believing in his claims, but as we grow from being spiritual children we must move into spiritual maturity which requires intelligent and rational thought.
‘Bout the whole ‘atheist’ and ‘agnostic’ terminology, i think your 2-6 definition of an agnostic works pretty well. So, yeah, maybe you are an agnostic after all. grin.
How’s this for a working principle for morality and social norms? “All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial.” i heard that a long time ago, no idea where or who it’s from. So i say chide, advise, suggest, speak from experience and tell others what you think they should do, but don’t ban or prohibit things. A rational person should rule out what is bad from their lives, because it doesn’t bring any benefit to yourself or those that you love. And love, like faith, is irrational, somewhat. grin.
And if you subscribe to the belief that Christianity is a relationship with God and not a religion (i haven’t really thought much about where i stand in this, personally), then love is a very good analogy for Christian faith. It’s choosing a lifestyle that pleases the one you love, the way a husband and wife make lifestyle sacrifices for each other when they get married.
And no, i’m not trying to preach here, i’m honestly just sharing my opinion about my faith, ’cause i was sorta asked to, but i know i’ve expanded much from “do you suspend rationality in terms of religion?” Sorry, i ramble. grin.
August 31, 2008 at 10:25 pm |
Hey Therapist,
I kinda agree with you that some (I stress some, by no means all) religious people are fairly hypocritical when it comes to applying moral values to real life. However, I would like to point out one thing:
Your entire reasoning, while it seems internally consistent, rests (as Whyon pointed out) on one particular way of interpreting the Bible. An interpretation that is particularly literal, one might add.
It is easy to interpret the Bible in several other ways, as I am sure some Biblical scholars have. Some might say you are merely quoting out of context, others will simply interpret that line is a different way. I do not believe that any one of them is more true than the other, since I believe them all equally false.
However, this does not mean that all interpretations are equally beneficial. I for one, am glad that most people do not take the words of the Bible literally. If anything, it opens their minds at least a little. Moreover, if taken literally, the Bible seems to condone killing the first-borns of your enemies. I for one, am very glad people do not take the Bible literally.
Also, I would like to point out that you do sound a little misogynistic in making your points. After all, why describe the female reproductive organ in such graphic detail and leave out the male one? I may be totally reading your tone wrong, but I would like it very much if the discussion on this blog remains civil. Thanks.
August 31, 2008 at 10:40 pm |
Hey Whyon,
I certainly can understand and respect how you must admire the good work many of your fellow Christians have done. Thanks for sharing with us so candidly. But I’d like to say, though, that no matter how nice Christians may be to me, I can only believe in Christianity when I believe the truth-content of its teachings.
And yeah, I’d say I’m technically an agnostic but to say that I’m atheist would communicate what I want to say better. After all, if asked, “Do you think the tooth-fairy exists?” you wouldn’t say “I’m agnostic”, even though you can’t be 100% sure. You’d say, “I don’t think they do.”
August 31, 2008 at 10:40 pm |
1. strictly speaking, on the sabbath you do not do any work. since killing is work, it is not justified as something done to attain rest.
2. In Israel on sundays, the hotel lift operates on its own. it stops at every floor so people dont have to do the work of pressing the button :)
3. i step forward, because i know i will stumble in my life as man has already stumbled when he ate the forbidden fruit in the garden of eden. because of that, man was seperated from God and it was only by the blood of Jesus Christ that we could get back to God again. God is right, i am wrong. but all im trying to do is live my life right by God’s standard, I TRY my hardest and do what i can, because God is like a father who loves us so much you cant imagine. So i try to live my life right so that when i stand before Him on judgement day in heaven, i can surely say that i’ve lived my life for Him to the best of my ability.
4. God gave the commandment that thou shalt not kill. so we should not kill. but you might say being angry is akin to killing, so we sin. God is just and righteous, so He will punish us of our wrongdoings, but He will still forgive when we truly repent.
5. hi my name is Joanne Gay, i’d like to know yours too, (therapist is an occupation.)
August 31, 2008 at 10:48 pm |
6. anyway, sex for pleasure between man and wife is not sexual immorality, but part of the institution of marriage. it is God’s gift, since he made man a mate from his ribs, called woman. the verses you quoted is regarding having sex with someone NOT your spouse. Living by the spirit ensures you wont go into sexual immorality-with someone NOT your spouse. :)
August 31, 2008 at 11:29 pm |
why are christian are so interest in sex? is say that maybe is wrong so you can? i really really think you shall live in the like toward prophet muhammad (peace be unto him) and not sexual immortallity.
allah ackbar, jamir m. achmed
September 1, 2008 at 2:42 am |
Hi all, I’m a fellow Victorian who have been following this discussion with much interest.
IMO, Daryl’s entry (together with the entire deluge of comments) has raised many interesting and coherent points about free expression (of religion specifically) in schools. As an atheist myself, I am thankful that Singapore as a city state and VJC as a governmental institution are both secular in nature and hold no discrimination against any religion (or lack of) or slant in general.
I initially planned to sit through this entire discussion, waiting to see what direction would it take and the points thrown up by both sides in support of their stand. But something has incited much anger and disappointment in me. This discussion has been both cordial on the part of both sides until recently.
Though Therapist’s reasoning may seem rational, it is my opinion that it takes on an unacceptable graphic slant (of a sexual nature) intent on making one feel uncomfortable and outraged. If one might take it further, it could amount to an outrage of modesty. Is there a need to resort to such basal analogies when there are many more that you can choose from (and illustrate your point just as clearly)?
I may sound like a right old prude, but I commend Joanne Gay for keeping her replies civil and to the point. Could the owner of the blog practice some sensible censorship with regards to Therapist’s comments?
Remember, the points you bring across to others may be rational, but debauching it just shows your antisocial (possibly sick?) personal inclinations towards others trying to get their point across too.
September 1, 2008 at 7:08 am |
Dear Messr Kane
It disgusts me that
(1) avoiding the point equates to being civil
- Messrs Gay: I discussed gratification, not immorality; the rest, I thank you for expounding, but miss my point – that regarding sabbath and murder is only to pre-empt any poor counterarguments and does not contribute to my conclusion, that regarding Israel is an interesting fact but irrelevant as well, while that regarding what mistakes you admit you might commit does not answer the question – if you are going by the “honest” route, could you go further down my questioning and qualify the grounds of what you wish to achieve? It also interests me that Messr Kane complies with your repeated breaking of promise not to deign to respond further as being ‘civil’.
- Wh Yon: If you do not have a viable counterargument, do not claim instead that you do not wish to argue with me. I understand you live in Singapore – but meeting in person? What if I am in Hong Kong while you’re thousands in distance apart (and the blog owner can easily perform a check on my IP address)? Are you simply making it impossible for me to test the veracity of your counterargument?
(2) rather than, and BEFORE showing any irrationalities in my points (you said they “may seem rational”, but you didn’t say why they are not rational in actuality as you assert; it is possible to be graphic AND rational, certainly), you wish for my comments to be censored… absolutely scholarly of an image you’ve given me of Singaporeans.
(3) students in your institution are taking an immature perspective at my points… you claim it is unacceptable and an outrage of modesty – and I may ask, outrage of WHOSE modesty?
- I respect your choice to align by atheism, but why would you demean another’s doctrine as an outrage of modesty? Is that not an outrage to a believer too? Surely, you are not claiming that I modified the excerpts?
- Or are you implying my choice of adjectives, “clitoral” and “vulvate”? These are not expletives in any way. I’m only saying these from a female point of view; but for a male audience like you, could you at least exert some self-control and observe distinctions between anatomical references and metaphorical allusions?
- Or do you mean the mention of masturbation? At this point I must apologize, for little did I expect schooling twits like Messr Kane to be uneducated in classical philosophy. It is said that Diogenes of Sinope was such a strong character of logical consistency that “he once masturbated in the Agora; when rebuked for doing so, he replied, “If only it was as easy to soothe my hunger by rubbing my belly.” I am merely quoting wikipedia, lest you accuse ME, in person, presenting anything ‘unacceptable’ again. This is a well-known account when it comes to exemplifying coherent behaviour – read it up. Or are you going to take this further and say that classical philosophy is an outrage of modesty?
You said that I INTEND to make you feel uncomfortable and outraged, when I thought it was fairly clear that I mentioned you could “suppose [I am] the very perverted person” so that the burden of discomfort is on me. As a woman myself, that has been largely sefless of me, and if there is anyone who is to feel uncomfortable or outraged at what levels I have to stoop to exhibit Messrs Gay’s flaws, I believe I am the one to first complain – and it is certainly not of me to blame, nor a fault along your insistences: it is because the very nature of these flaws that I am forced to explicitly mention. I have never mentioned that Messr Kane, for instance, is the perverted person in mnetion. Furthermore, I consider myself to be heterosexual, and Messrs Gay has certainly shown her own bearing. I do not believe it can arise, between the two us, any outrage.
Basal analogies? You seem to be missing the point – the very nature of the flaws: I am driving at logical inconsistency in one’s behaviour, of course I have to find a point in which one does not expressively display but can be deduced from one’s words alone. Do you mean that a court judge is to acquit Mr Fritzl on the basis that his outward behaviour is acceptable, despite such raging inmodesties underneath? Or are you going to accuse a jury who verdicts him guilty of committing a ‘basal analogy’?
Many more options to choose from? Strong words coming from someone who “planned to sit through this entire discussion”, Messr Kane. I will tell you my next option: I will not deign to your immature level any further. I have accomplished my goal of showing that there are dishonest people who self-proclaim to believe in something, while refuse to admit so, I am not concerned with the rest of this blog. But oh, I got something more out of it – the standards of your educational upbringing and maturation, and that of your institution, now that you have clarified.
September 1, 2008 at 9:15 am |
Hi Daryl,
[ok probably what im posting here is not in line with the current thread that's going on, but just a few thoughts on my part]
I know the people who are behind the posters and the cards, some of them rather well, close and personally. I just wanted to let you know that they’d really just want to spread this joy that they have. Maybe, you could just see it as a form of care and concern, and simply a way of loving those around them. Now, loving isn’t wrong is it.
I somewhat feel [ok maybe a bit biased here] that even though you say your conclusions and feelings are not particularly aiming at any religion, it seems that most of the examples or criticisms you gave all rage against christianity?
Maybe you are being little too oversensitive regarding the usage of “God Bless”. Yes i do agree with you that in a government school like ours, the [official] student bodies should refrain from any of these religious comments or contexts but i believe that from anyone, not just Christian SC/person using the word just means well, in a general form. I believe they mean it to be in the same manner as “take care” or “have a nice day”. Nothing more
On the topic faith, a simple definition would be that of ‘Believing in what we cannot see” The ‘what’ in the definition probably mainly refers to God, in the religion, or any events that happened previously that we choose to believe in. However, i come from a point where issues like these are all very personal. Asking any Christian, i don’t think any of them can directly tell you how God helps people and brings them through times of trouble and need. Probably the only way of communicating that to you is by telling you how God has blessed them in their own lives, ie, it comes from a personal experience.
Your viewpoints, do they arise from any experience [good or bad] from the past? Maybe they didn’t, maybe they did.
If they did, then i don’t see quite much difference between ‘evangelising’ and you expressing your views. I think many people have a common stereotype, probably a misconception too, that christian evangelism all aims to getting new converts and expanding the church. That may be what the bible have commanded us to do, but i hold that above all, it arises from a love that we want you to share.
Sometimes, i do feel that sometimes all these studies and research on trying to generalise religion is going nowhere. To a certain extent, you cannot study the spiritual with the physical, can you? Why don’t we all just leave it up to the individual, since you say there should be freedom of expression too, and freedom of choice?
And, i think all these is just rather controversial because you claim that being agnostic or an atheist does not fall under the branch of having any religion. I would like to contend that that ‘religion’ is just a set of beliefs that one chooses to follow. I would like to think that being agnostic or an atheist is just like that, and it doesn’t mean that because Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other ‘religion’ is considered ‘religion’ because of the concept of having a ‘God’ in the picture.
If you do believe that all religions have a ‘God’, then wouldn’t atheism be believing in a ‘God of nothing’. The term ‘God’, as much as religions contextualize it to be, isn’t it not just something that someone worships?
—
Daryl, i honestly appreciate your views and your maturity with such questions. But maybe you’d have a be a little more ’subtle’ in expressing yourself because i think some people may be getting rather irritated. heh.
About such intellectual debates, i have no wish to fight because i know i will lose, definitely to you.
But one thing i would like you to know.
God has shown me the wonders of the works of His hand, and I have truly experienced His grace. Nothing can take this away from me, or argue against it. If you’d like to hear/know more, whether or not to find any loopholes, you’re free to just give me a call, i’ll gladly tell you about them.
Well, that’s it. and i shall be off to revise.
All the best for prelims, and hold it against me if you must, but i’ll still say it,
God Bless (:
September 1, 2008 at 11:56 am |
therapist:
1. my NAME is Joanne Gay. Gay is my surname, not my sexual inclination.
2. its not very much use arguing with a wall isnt it. just like i wont budge after trying to understand what you are saying, and you wont budge no matter what we say anyway.
3. i hope you’ll have a happy day, and i wish you do not try to insult the whole school based on hearing only what a small portion have to say.
4 :)
September 1, 2008 at 12:05 pm |
Hey Katherine, thanks for commenting. But I don’t think Therapist’s views deserve censorship. Despite how they might be articulated, the points remain points.
But really, any Christian who wishes to disagree with Therapist may simple say, “That’s not how I interpret the Bible, nor how my pastor interprets it”. And Therapist’s attempt to prove dishonesty would fail, since it is predicated upon you having certain beliefs. No need for anything to get too heated here.
September 1, 2008 at 8:42 pm |
As an outsiders point of view, I just feel terribly sad for you. so shallow, critical and ungraceful.
September 1, 2008 at 9:23 pm |
oh can somebody tell me the meaning of “messr”? dictionary.com says its an acronym meaning Multispectral Electronic Self-Scanning Radiometer, which i think does not really apply.. Multispectral Electronic Self-Scanning Radiometer Gay? hmmamm.
September 1, 2008 at 11:36 pm |
Messrs is the plural of Mister. If I am not wrong, it is an abbreviation for the French “messieurs”. It is neither “Miss”, nor “Mrs”, in which case both Therapist and Joanne have used it wrong.
September 2, 2008 at 12:31 am |
Dear Therapist,
Firstly, I’d very much like to know your name madam. Most of us here have identified ourselves. Why hide behind an alias if you’ve got nothing to hide?
On the other hand, I’d to thank you very much for your gratuitous insights, albeit the harsh and heavily distinctive tendencies of which I will care to elaborate further later. From what you mentioned earlier coupled with your highly contentious religious views, I gather that you’re a staunch apoligist (whose philosophical foundations assert that Christianity is nonsense, a superstition mixed with philosophical fragments). Now, as an agnostic, perhaps I could relate to what you may have to say, however, after thoroughly scrutinising your arguments, I realise that you may have a underlying agenda of which you seek out of this discussion, that is to propagate your extremist teachings.
1. You have acknowledged that Joanne’s claim to her faith may not necessarily encompass logical congruency, yet you stubbornly continue with your argument pertaining to analytic and tautologous rationalities.
> ‘I am driving at logical inconsistency in one’s behaviour…’ – Therapist
2. You seem to have a strong inclination towards debasing Messrs Gay’s beliefs by continuously and rigidly questioning her ‘inconsistancies’ within her beliefs, which may I remind you, is not of your concern nor of that of the discussion in general.
3. You exhibit a perverse intrusive desire in a discussion which revolves around our community. Not to mention, with bearings highly nonaligned to the main topic – freedom of religious expression in public spaces.
4. You make selective references to specific texts with utter disregard to others which points out your argumental flaws.
> ‘…rests on one particular way of interpreting the Bible’ – Daryl
5. You make false claims which lies on far-fetched assumptions, which you then continue to expound into a slippery slope argument.
> ‘I believe then from your admission that you make mistakes, you are accepting that there will be at least a unit of debaucherous activity that will arise from marriage, which you in turn admit, you are most probable to engage.’ – Therapist
6. You make assertions that qualify as flamebaits.
> ‘for little did I expect schooling twits like Messr Kane to be uneducated in classical philosophy’
‘I will not deign to your immature level any further’
‘As an outsiders point of view, I just feel terribly sad for you. so shallow, critical and ungraceful.’ – Therapist
7. You have impinged upon our cultural reservations by inducing explicit graphical references which we, ’schooling twits’ may not be as liberal, and hence mature (notice the implicit correlation you’re making here?) enough to take it in our strides
Now perhaps you’re thinking of launching into another heavily ladened wall of text to point out how oxymoronic, ’shallow’ and ‘immature’ I have been. However, I’d advise you, for the sake of your sanity, let alone ours, to quit arguing with twits like us for we are not worthy of your scholastic pedanticism. For what’s at stake, the red cross button at the top right-hand corner of your screen looks mildly inviting. Enough said. K thanks, bye.
September 2, 2008 at 1:28 am |
Hey Daryl. Reply #66. The ‘toot-fairy’? grin. i wonder what that fairy does. Sorry, i know it’s probably just a typo. Not picking on your language at all, but it’s hilarious. grin. And thanks for clearing up that Messrs business. Wanted to post ’bout it last night, i think, but i forgot. It was getting annoying. So much for the Speak Good English campaign. grin.
Therapist, if you’re still reading this blog, the lack of a desire doesn’t mean the lack of an argument. Admittedly, i haven’t really sat down to stew over some of the things you’ve said. i honestly am not here to argue but to express my views on certain things. i don’t believe that the examples you give need any censorship either. Shock therapy works best sometimes, i figure and sometimes we need strong examples to open our eyes, remind us that the world is not as nice a place as it seems.
i think, however, that you are not here to share your views on life but rather to push an agenda.
“I have accomplished my goal of showing that there are dishonest people who self-proclaim to believe in something, while refuse to admit so, I am not concerned with the rest of this blog. But oh, I got something more out of it – the standards of your educational upbringing and maturation, and that of your institution, now that you have clarified.” – Therapist
Not having a complete grasp on theology and not being perfect doesn’t mean that a person is dishonest.
But aside from that, i think it’s unfair coming here with an agenda, coming here to argue. i know that some others do look like they’re arguing, some people here even seem patronising. i know i might sound like that at times too. i won’t speak for everyone here, but for some at least, i know we’re here to present our views on religion and the freedom of speech. i think Daryl would agree with that.
i’m going assuming from your manner that you’re an older person, an adult who has had more time to explore issues and ideas about life and religion that most of us have. i think it’s unfair to take advantage of that extra experience. Please don’t just tear down and attack those who make statements, be constructive and instruct and guide. Teach us how to think, not how to feel like dumb little kids. You seem to imply that you have something against the products of the education system that we go through. Do something positive about it and show us how to be more than just the products of a nice, neat, assembly line education but to be people who can think and help each other learn. As iron sharpens iron, y’know?
If you’re really game to meet, i’m interested. My number is 96545847. Gimme a holler or drop me a text if you want to meet. i don’t know how to contact you. i’ll do my best to prepare myself for a mature discussion. i am gonna be having my A Level prelims soon, so it might not be that easy to meet, but if we can find a time when we’re both free then sure, i’ll meet up. Hey, who knows, we might be able to be friends despite our different world views.
This is also presuming that you’re in Singapore. i read your ‘i might be in Hong Kong’ line a few times, still couldn’t figure it out if you meant you were in Singapore of Hong Kong.
September 2, 2008 at 1:30 am |
And hey, let’s all stop using insulting language that doesn’t serve any purpose, k? Words like stupid, shallow, twits….These aren’t words that belong in a discussion that’s at least attempting to be fair and intellectual. All of us.
September 2, 2008 at 1:58 am |
Therapist said:
“Many more options to choose from? Strong words coming from someone who “planned to sit through this entire discussion”, Messr Kane. I will tell you my next option: I will not deign to your immature level any further.”
Nice way to avoid a point, just wrap up.
“the standards of your educational upbringing and maturation, and that of your institution, now that you have clarified.”
Perhaps we prefer to open up to different schools of thought, rather than make a one-track argument and put down anything else that does not adhere to it.
Your argument, like mentioned by Daryl, is subject to just one form of interpretation of the Bible. Concluding with just one argument isn’t the most mature thing I’ve seen, and while the context of the argument is really impressive, there’s little to evaluate from there and practically, the argument would be hardly relevant to most of us here.
Apart from such a debate being pretty way off-track from the (presumed) purpose of the post, I think it’s great that Singapore’s institution evidently teaches basic respect and tolerance. Now THAT’S maturity.
September 2, 2008 at 4:28 am |
Dear Christians,
I am outraged that your school permits posters of your religion. We Muslims are not push-overs. We remove our daughters’ tudongs and acknowledge the school as a secular institute. Why can’t you Christians do the same and take other religions into consideration. It is only you Christians that are putting up posters and having your Church practices in school.
As a Muslim I feel such Christians are being more arrogant and uncaring towards people of other religions. Singapore is a secular state with many religions; if you want a Christian Nation please go somewhere else.
Muslims are many more times coherent with our Quran than you Christians with your bible. How can you Christian girls wear skimpy clothing when your bible states you should not be sexually immoral? We Muslims adhere to the Quran (Surah An-Nur) “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: they should not display their adornments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty.” We abide to the words of Allah.
As an advice to you Christians, do not take your bible too literally. The Christian bible is inconsistent with science. The bible mentions the Universe was created in six days while the Quran tells us in six Ayyaams which also means stage or epoch which is a very long period of time. Your Christian bible illogically states that day and night were created on the first day and stars were created on the fourth day. How can the source of light be created 3 days later? The Quran on the other hand did not give any scientific sequence of the creation. If you want I can list down many other parts of the bible that is incoherent with science. The Quran is a much more accurate source of the Truth.
To conclude, I believe all religions should live in harmony. It is harmony that has allowed Singapore to prosper. But ultimately, Allah is the one true God. Many a times Christians say they experience God in their lives. In actual fact, it is Allah Almighty. Allah saves and inspire people even to non-Muslims and non-Christians too because HE is the most merciful one. Praise to Allah.
jamir m. achmed
September 2, 2008 at 8:45 am |
jamir.
i think i’ll be saying this in certain ways on behalf of daryl as well. pls dun turn this blog/post into a place for the ‘war of the religions’ to take place. I think that if you wish to debate on religion vs religion, this might not be the best setting.
“To conclude, I believe all religions should live in harmony. It is harmony that has allowed Singapore to prosper.”
Yes. Absolutely.
“But ultimately, Allah is the one true God. Many a times Christians say they experience God in their lives. In actual fact, it is Allah Almighty. Allah saves and inspire people even to non-Muslims and non-Christians too because HE is the most merciful one.”
Uh… Is that your way of promoting harmony?
I’m sure we all have our own ’sets of belief’ and I very much respect that. Pls do not demean others’ faith like that.
Your respect and bluntness is much appreciated.
“As an advice to you Christians, do not take your bible too literally.”
Absolutely agreed. I even agree on some points brought up by Daryl in comment 65. Many ppl just quote a verse from d Bible and twist it into their own perspective. It becomes more like their own bible than the Bible then. I think many Christians should avoid taking verses out of context. That aside… The same goes for any OTHER religion, not just us, right?
No offense, dude…
Just my humble opinions…
September 2, 2008 at 9:26 am |
hi Jamir,
just some insights on my part.
1. I do know to some extent that the bible and the Quran hold quite a few similarities in the text itself. If you are saying that the bible is inconsistent with science, aren’t you saying that or the Quran too?
and saying that about the bible being inconsistent with science: here are some facts of the world.
1. Noah’s ark is supposedly believed to be resting on Mt Ararat, if you’d google the issue a little you can actually see images and roughly make out the shape. Whether this really is the ark or not we may not know. But still, there’s a inclination to the truth.
2. We all know the story of Moses, as depicted by the movie ‘Prince of Egypt’. Archeologists have gone down to the bottom of the red sea and found remains of chariots wheels and skeletons of dead horses.
3. It has been scientifically proven by scientists that it is actually possible to split a body of water like how the Red Sea was said to have split.
4. When researching on the creation theories, there is a period of time where the scientists cannot account for, a time lapse where they find that they cannot find any relevant information to deal with. The Bible has part of the information, that there is an instance when the sun stopped moving and time was still.
5. It has been said that water has been found in space. Reading the bible, it’s said “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it.” Which possible explains the discovery.
Not trying to quarrel with you or anything, but just trying to show some stats here.
I do agree too that sometimes we do take our bible text out of context, mostly always making it more comfortable for ourselves. But still, i don’t think there’s any need to direct it specifically to such a religion if yes, it’s harmony you’re going to talk about.
I believe we all hold strong viewpoints because of our own faith, let’s not try to be too pushy here cause faith is something rather ‘irrational’ in it’s nature and something that cannot be argued against.
September 2, 2008 at 2:54 pm |
Yup. I’m perfectly fine with anyone commenting here, and am quite glad that a another religion’s perspective got featured here. However, let’s not have a “my religion omgwtfpwns yours” here. Just keep things with a civil tone.
And LOL whyon, that’s a hilarious typo you found there. But I’m gonna change it. Hahaha. =p
September 2, 2008 at 4:52 pm |
To Tkl
Note that I have not said any irrational statements so far. A real religion vs religion argument would be arguing with respect to the values we have. I have therefore only raised inconsistency in the bible with regards to scientific evidence which a non-believer could rationally raise as well. I quote my verses exactly from the bible and Quran. You preach your scripture in our secular institutions but you refuse to hear arguments from another religion. Many Christians here have expressed their views on Christianity, surely you must allow the Muslim perspective or are you another arrogant and uncaring Christian.
It would be hypocritical to say Allah is not the one true God. He is the one true God. As you would feel that your God is the one true God. But there is only one true God that is Allah Almighty. But when I mean harmony, did we put up any posters or have our Church practices in school? Surely you must admit that Muslims have done our part in keeping our institutions secular.
When I say literal, I am referring to the Bible being more incoherent to Science than The Quran which is based on scientific evidence. Matt has kindly provided facts that prove The Quran to be true. And I have shown how the bible has many scientific inconsistencies.
To Matt,
Thank you for sharing facts about The Quran and the bible. The facts you stated can be used to prove the existence of my religion as well. Despite the similarities between The Quran and the bible, we do have differences in the context of the events. For example regarding the flood, The Quran did not indicate any specific year for the occurrence in the event. Secondly the flood was not a universal event that destroyed all life on Earth. The Quran states the flood only happened among Noah’s people. The event in the bible took place 1656 years after the birth of Adam. This suggests that the flood is in the 21th century or 22th century. However we know this contradicts scientific evidence from archaeological sources which showed that the 11th dynasty of Egypt or 3rd dynasty in Babylonia existed without any interruption in civilisation. This contradicts the bible that the world whole was flooded.
To Daryl,
Thanks for writing your post. Your post represents the voices of the silent students who feel uncomfortable about the issue but are afraid to voice them, perhaps not to hurt their friends. Sorry if my tone might sound offensive, I was particularly angry at many Christians commenting that they supposedly are “experiencing God”. What they are experiencing is the mercy of Allah Almighty as it is written he blesses non-christians and non muslims as well. Nevertheless, I do believe wholehearted in the truthfulness of my previous post. Sorry to have posted largely irrelevant facts about the truthfulness in Islam compared to Christianity. I was irritated that the fact Christians said that they have faith in their religion and I quote “believing something that is not tangible”. I do not see the logic behind their arguments. My faith is based on the tangible records and teachings of The Quran which is coherent to scientific evidence and the blessings of Allah in my life. We are consistent with our beliefs. We follow The Quran and are against sexual immorality. Our woman wear tudongs to protect ourselves and also do their very best to prevent any indecent thoughts by our male counterparts. However, we have put that down as we also believe in maintaining harmonious relationship with our brothers and sisters who have yet to receive Islam. Why can’t the Christians do the same? I am not afraid to pin point Christians because they are the only ones disrupting our secular institutions.
I hope my words inspired some of you to read The Quran. You would find that The Quran is at many times more consistent with scientific evidence. In fact The Quran actually said the actual shape of the Earth. “And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Quran 79:30]. Allah has certainly blessed me throughout my life, and I hope you will come to know the joy of living in Truth in Islam. Praise to Allah.
jamir m. achmed
September 2, 2008 at 7:13 pm |
Hey Daryl,
Yeah, joining the debate really incredibly late; but then again perhaps I won’t be in the debate at all, as my concerns are rather different from those who have commented before I. But before I start I’d just like to say that I am not religious in any way, but I am involved in inter-religious activities, and the topic interests me a great deal. (Much more than studying for prelims does, at any rate. :P)
I personally agree with your stand that Singapore is a secular state and should remain one – and in many ways we are extremely blessed (oh, ironic) with government leaders who are capable of disregarding their own personal religious beliefs in favour of productive and constructive views that are for the greater good of the nation.
I think we can have sufficient faith in the workings of the government to be assured that a case of religious elites taking over the reins is unlikely to happen, at least not in our lifetime. Singapore has always been very sure of its secularity (unlike the United States, for instance) and prides itself on its ability to divorce the personal and political spheres. In several public arenas, several politicians have emphasised the point that what they personally feel about certain issues (one that sticks out in my mind is that of homosexuality, though I confess I can neither remember the context nor the details, which rather renders this a useless example) is wholly separate from what they feel is good for the nation. If this is truly the case, then I think we would have no cause for worry. After all, a politician cannot get very far by talking about religion – simply put, it is one of the OB markers. Any scent of religious motive and citizens will get angry, and other politicians will cry foul. This might be simplifying the point a bit, but I hope you get what I mean. And also, those who care enough about politics to go that far up would hopefully be smart/well-educated/wise enough to know where the line between private and public ends.
Singapore toes the religion line very well, in my opinion, by allowing all citizens to have their own faiths on the condition that faith
This is achived simply by always reminding people that religion is private and should never be mixed in work. To this end authorities encourage social integration, and are very, very careful that whatever they do will not allow anybody, minority or not, to have any real cause for complaint.
I think Christian evangelism is a point that cannot be curbed. As I’m not a Christian myself, I don’t know how true this is, so as a disclaimer I beg the forgiveness of any Christians I might offend by getting my facts wrong. But from what friends and a religious leader have told me about Christianity, evangelism happens because of the need to ’save’ everyone from being damned. The concept is that you will be ’saved’ by believing in God, and since being damned is a terrible thing, if one does not try to ’save’ others, it is tantamount to sin. Therefore evangelism takes place.
Putting aside the fundamental problems that non-Christians have with the whole concept of being saved, it’s actually an altruistic concept.
Furthermore I don’t see quite how evangelism will be bad for Singapore. The 10 official religions in Singapore are all ‘good’ religions, in the sense that none of them undermine or threaten the social fabric and security in Singapore by introducing controversial or potentially harmful elements to society. If your fear about widespread evangelism is about the fear of religion infiltrating policy-making decisions, then I refer again to the above point about our political system. I’d also like to append that there are many checks and balances that create a net to stop any possibility of this happening – one of them is the regulation on the minority seat in a GRC. This simultaneously protects the rights of religious and racial minorities, while also ensuring that those in the majority do not go overboard. Another check is that of the legislation system in place. All new laws undergo 3 checks – first they are debated in Parliament, then are submitted to the Secretary of State, and finally to the President, who has the ultimate veto power, and who has the particular role set out for him to ensure that no law is passed which endangers any minority group in Singapore. Should he fail to do so, Parliament has the power to unseat him.
(At least, these details were right as of 2005. I haven’t had the chance to update my legislative knowledge since, but I trust they haven’t changed all that much since. Judging by how bloody difficult it seems to be to get any laws about legislature passed in Parliament nowadays, this is likely to be the case.)
But anyway, barring a total coup d’etat, I think the infiltration of religion into the higher echelons is going to be quite difficult should anybody wish to try. And should anybody accidentally do so, the net should also prove pretty sturdy.
From an inter-faith point of view I actually worry about your point about Christian evangelism. Don’t get me wrong – I dislike evangelists, and can turn quite nasty when I meet particularly pushy ones – but trying to curb evangelism is also curbing their right to free speech, which is a paradox that I’m sure you’re aware of. (By the way, free speech doesn’t exist in Singapore.) For me it’s a live and let live thing. Personally I disapprove of the actions of weareveryhappy – even the little card things, for which you’re actually more tolerant than I am! – but they can be rationalised with point that the motive and purpose is not evangelical but rather altruistic, and that God is the best way they know to express these encouragements.
But of course, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So instead I think actually that putting this up to the administration would do quite a bit of good, because in that way at least administration is aware of these concerns from the thus-far unvoiced unreligious groups, and the problem of VJ turning religious can be prevented instead of cured.
I’m glad to say, however, that there are a lot of people who are aware of this, and that baby steps have been taken towards reconciling the various religious and non-religious groups in VJ. The J1s attended a forum in the last week of school and it opened up many possibilities for development. My only regret is that this same opportunity could not be extended to the J2s because of bad timing, what with all the Careers talks. But it was extremely heartening that the J1s proved to be open and receptive to what people had to say about religion. It’s a baby step, but like all baby steps it means that the way to better and less controversial religious discussion can now be built.
Sorry if any of my diction seems ill-placed, or if my phrasing seems weird in places, and that my organisation is all over the place. My hands are shaking like mad from medication so I’m concentrating very hard on typing – in fact, I am having to dictate to myself what I type just to make sure that everything makes at least a little sense. Hur.
P.S. to Jamir – While I think it is very good that you have great faith in your religion, and that you feel righteous anger about the alleged tearing down of secularity by Christians, I don’t think it’s fair to pinpoint Christians this way.
One thing that is fundamental to understanding the Bible is that it has been translated and re-translated many many times, such that much of the original nuances have been lost over time. Of course the problem was exacerbated by human error by translators who had their own beliefs about what God wants. That is also why there are so many sects in Christianity. Furthermore the Bible, in order to keep itself updated with the times, has had to constantly update the language of the Bible to make it more accessible.
If you think about it in a purely linguistic and social sense, it’s a problem of translation. That is why many things in the Bible cannot be taken literally.
In a way Muslims are lucky because you can read it in Arabic and therefore its original form, and so the ‘word of Allah’ has been preserved and not lost.
Furthermore it’s not fair to pinpoint the Christians on this comments thread because you may not know them personally – they might not (and indeed, do not) dress provocatively, and I believe they have conservative beliefs about things like premarital sex.
What they are experiencing is the mercy of Allah Almighty as it is written he blesses non-christians and non muslims as well.
Also, please do not impose your religious beliefs on other people. By doing this you are not respecting other peoples’ religions and therefore the constitutional rights of Singaporeans. Also this is very helpful in keeping things sane and not angry in inter-religious dialogue, because the best way to offend another religious person is of course to offend their religion. -wry grin-
Furthermore there’s no point in lambasting other religions and what others choose to believe, whether it is based on blind faith or not. No religion teaches people how to sin, but only how to be good – and if their faith leads them to a healthy way of life, then wouldn’t the purpose have been served, and to the greater good of all? And there can be no happy living in arguing that ‘my religion is better than yours’, as it only breeds hate and war. And should not religion be about love?
September 2, 2008 at 9:45 pm |
shannon: to clarify, the shallow comment thing was TO Therapist, not from that person.
September 2, 2008 at 11:52 pm |
oops. my bad. can’t be rectified though. daryl ah, attracting unwanted attention eh >.<
September 3, 2008 at 12:15 am |
ر لآيات الكتاب المقدس, قاموس للكلمات العسرة مع مد لكل سفر وصوتيات أسفار العهد الجديد.
موقع النور الرد على ادعاءات وسوء التفاهم من أخوانا الإسلام الذين يتسألون عن معتقدات المسيحية ويناقشون أيمان
للبحث المتقدم مع إمكانيات عديدة كتفسير
كتابية, مواضيع عقائدية , أمور عائلية
!لله أَكْبَر
Allahu Akbar!
September 3, 2008 at 12:23 am |
i reading the above with very angry!
you know that in saudi arabia women cannot drive, what more go around and spread false lies! motto of great KSA (Kingdom Saudi Arabia) reading “There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”
these women if in saudi will be flogged and stoned to death.
!لله أَكْبَر
Allahu Akbar!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)
September 3, 2008 at 12:48 am |
Oh god. That lasted my like close to half an hour just getting through it all. I have no intent to list an entire argument just days before prelims because my brain is already half-saturated with integrals and Phillip Pirrip. But, the i-am-against-apathy side of me speaks, so here goes.
1) I agree that the school is a secular institution and that religious subtlety should be observed. Freedom of expression is nice and dandy, but as we all already know, freedom of expression comes with limits (lol, the conundrum of post-modernism institutionalism as said by Mr Cook). And i think it pushes the limits when it is allowed within a school, with the school administration turning a blind eye to it.
2) But, there certainly is nothing wrong with putting up posters declaring how happy you are. So in a sense, there is no violation or unwarranted imposition of the Christian religion unto anyone here.
3) However, it does taint the image of the group itself. I speak with no intent of malice here. The whole evangelistic slant has, like it or not, tainted the image of Christianity. You may choose to see it as spreading the love and joy all around the world, but at the end of the day, any idea (not only Christianity) is judged upon by the rest of the world.
4) Gwen: You see, all 10 religions cannot be equally “good”, at least in the Christian sense. So in a way, evangelism is “not good”
Okaaay woah, i didnt want to get involved in this. But anyway. Just some food for thought in the already very messy plate.
oh btw, the whole homosexuality thing? I think its a bigger problem to figure out if christianity IS or ISN’T against homosexuality. Sure seems like the American anglican bishops are confused, albeit sexually. You may profess that christianity is against it, as my previous church did, but it clearly there is some division on this even within the community
Yours Sincerely,
Darren
September 3, 2008 at 12:49 am |
Oh right! Shucks, pun not intended for the “oh god”… And anyway, I forgot to say, daryl, you know what my stand on this right? Kudos.
September 3, 2008 at 1:39 am |
I see Daryl’s been having some fun! :) I’m going to join in the fun as well and exercise my right to free speech on your blog if it’s not unwelcome!
[Quote]
1. What is faith?
“daryl, i would like it very much if you were able to explain to me what the meaning of faith is. thank you.” – Joanne Gay
Simply put, faith is blind belief: belief despite a lack of evidential justification.
[Unquote]
I’ll just point out that your definition of faith is not the biblical explanation of faith according to Hebrews 11:1-2
“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.”
I’d be happy to discuss this, and your need for evidential justification AFTER YOUR EXAMS!!! IF you WANT to (but I don’t think you do – :))
I think you kids really ought to go hit the books now…
All the best for the Prelims, and then the As! We’re proud of you and I miss you all…
Peace!!
Cheers!
September 3, 2008 at 12:46 pm |
whats with the arabic stuff?
September 4, 2008 at 11:22 pm |
Urgh I’m amazed this thread is still around, and has like… super multiplied itself. Hmph. I notice no one bothered responding to my and Chunhan’s posts, and I was just wondering if it was because no one had much to say. But yes, we’re not exactly talking about whether or not God exists, or whether or not believers should be allowed to evangelise and stuff. I think the important point to take from this whole long, long, long list that includes some rather defensive remarks that sound to me hasty and ill-considered is that ultimately, some people feel uncomfortable when a particular group explicitly expresses its religious security and… happiness to the world, which is diverse in nature.
Let’s examine the situation. In any school that is not religiously affiliated in Singapore, we have people, presumably, from all walks of life. Assuming that there is an overtly large proportion of people who are Christian, greater than any other proportion – say 30%. And among all the other major religious groups such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or even atheism and agnosticism, there is an equal split.
For arguments’ sake, let’s just say that the agnostics and half of the believers from other faiths are not going to be bothered by the expressions of individual religious happiness brought about by a monotheistic religion that is not theirs. I believe for good reason that this number is, like the number of Christians in school, slightly inflated at best.
So what do we have? We have roughly half of the people from other religious groups feeling varying amounts of discomfort due to the declaration of happiness from a religious group.
Admittedly, this is a barbaric way of dealing with the statistics, and is probably far from representative, because I believe that people from other religious groups, particularly those which are monotheistic in nature will mostly frown upon such actions by that group. On top of that, it’s unlikely that the proportion of agnostics and atheists will be as such, and the number of christians is probably inflated a bit.
So if we make minor adjustments for these subtleties in the demographic, what we will see is that a proportion probably larger than the Christian proportion will experience discomfort, and possible annoyance that such a thing could happen in an institution that is almost clinically secular for good reason, for it allows everyone to be on equal grounds.
This expression of happiness from the christian population in school, or rather, from a group in christians in school who are not representative of the christian population, could possible lead to discomfort in a proportion of people far larger than themselves.
To look at it from a very tempting, purely utilitarian point of view, one will probably not find such actions advisable or well considered in the circumstances.
And in case someone picks on this, I realise that the number of Muslims and other religious persons in school is probably not as high as 10% in most of the cases, but the fact remains that most of them will be uncomfortable, and it’s not a proportion that is, collectively, not at least comparable to that of the Christians in school.
So let’s then consider their discomfort against the discomfort of Christians, presumably, from not sharing their religion. I believe that most Christians probably would experience discomfort from not spreading the word about their religion because I understand it is one of the basic tenets of their religion. So the question to ask is whether or not Christians’ discomfort considered against potential public backlash (as can be seen from some of the more emotionally charged posts against their actions) and discomfort on the part of those who do not openly express their views, and the propensity for immature people to make extremist cases out of things and blow things out of proportions is as important. I think I’ve made it quite clear what I believe in, and I think most rational people would agree with me that in light of the potential consequences it was not a very wise decision to put up the posters in the first place.
I believe that everyone has their own right to religious freedom, including minority groups. This is why I feel the posters shouldn’t have been put up in the first place. School is secular, and will remain secular after this episode, I hope. Regardless of intentions, which I do not doubt were good, it was an ill-informed action. While it would’ve been interesting if a fervent Muslim like Jamir had gone about putting posters around school saying “I feel like I know the greatest conscious being in existence! Want to know why? Come ask me at iamverypleasedwithmyself@gmail.com.”, what would’ve happened, and whether or not the fervent Christian community would have reacted favourably towards it.
But it should remain a thought experiment, because call me narrow-minded, but I don’t believe that people who commit to monotheistic faiths with doctrines that are still disputed within the community of believers are open-minded enough to deal with it. And I don’t want to open that can of worms.
Besides, a good practice when dealing with liberties of any sort is to ensure that individual liberty does not encroach on others’, so if I have encroached on anyone’s freedom of expression for any reason whatsoever in this unintendedly long comment, please do say so. Sorry Daryl, but I guess it’ll have to be on your blog too. Lol.
September 6, 2008 at 11:19 pm |
Heya people!
Here’s a quick summary of this post, in case you don’t wanna read the whole thing. Two main points here. First is that i don’t believe the Bible we have now is significantly different in terms of meaning from its original text/translations haven’t distorted the meaning of the Bible. i believe the Bible’s pretty reliable as a historical document, but that a lot of it is story and narration to help us understand certain ideas and shouldn’t be interpreted literally.
That’s what leads to the bombings of abortion clinics and the murder of doctors who perform such operations by Christians and even a few pastors. Not cool and not very good Christianity or humanity there, for that matter.
To Gwen. i personally don’t believe that the Bible has been translated badly. Agreed, nuances of language have been lost through the multiple translations. For example, the original recordings of Jesus’ teachings were supposedly poetic rather than just blandly stating principles to live by. In terms of accuracy of translation, getting the gist of the text, research shows that translations are pretty accurate. (Sorry folks, been reading up on this for my KI Independent Study.) So, no, i don’t think the meaning of the Bible has changed very much. i’m not saying this to show that the truth of the Bible is beyond doubt, just to show that what we have now is pretty close to the original text, with lotsa checks and balances having been made.
About the multiplicity of Christian denominations. That’s not so much a problem of different translations of the Bible, but different ways of doing things such as holding church services, whether or not pastors (or anyone else) should be allowed to consume alcohol (it’s ok by the Bible…this is just a matter of preference brought about by social conditions) and so on. It’s really too complex to discuss on a blog, i think.
To Jamir. No offence, but i really don’t think your attacks on the Bible not being scientifically accurate (actually, i think it’s probably an issue of history rather than science) aren’t really justified. The Bible is more than just a history book and what Christians believe (but i don’t expect you to believe this, mind), God’s word. It’s also a book of literature, of story, you might even say of myth, to a certain extent. Or at least what we’d consider myth, ’cause things like the Leviathan(which is mentioned in Job, i think) are just completely outside the human experience. i’m not gonna say anything ’bout the Quran, ’cause i really don’t know anything about it.
i know nobody knows everything and no one has the time to learn everything there is to know about the world, but i think it’d be nice if we could refrain from unjustified attacks on other people’s beliefs, no matter what these beliefs are about. If you really do wanna attack a belief, attack this: i believe that life is too short for us not to enjoy and that exams and studies shouldn’t get in the way of living our lives to the fullest. Have fun. grin. (i really do believe this, by the way.)
September 6, 2008 at 11:27 pm |
And yeah,i’m obviously biased in favour of Christianity ’cause i’m a Christian so my perception of the historicity of the Bible may be skewed, but there is some research behind it. What i’m saying is that we shouldn’t make unjustified claims, whether they’re about your own belief or someone else’s. Especially if it’s a belief that’t not your own, i think.
September 7, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
Daryl, I’m amazed at the number of comments! I noticed something in school that brought me back here – a huge stack of magazines published by the Muslim Converts Association of Singapore, on a table beside the Zocard stand in the concourse. Have you noticed it?
The magazines are meant to give advice to students about how to get through stressful JC life. But at the same time, it seems clear that they contain the underlying message that converting to Islam would allow you to solve life’s problems. This is not explicit, but the messages from the Muslims and Muslim converts in the magazines attest to this.
Is this not the same sort of message you claim the “We Are Very Happy” group to be proclaiming as well? Now, I am sure that both the Association and the group had good intentions behind their actions. However, when a religious group tries to do something for the benefit of the community and the people around them, it is difficult to divorce religion from what they are doing, especially in an outsider’s perspective, because they are simply a religious group.
I want to point out that most people believe that their religion is the right one, fervently or not, because their religion teaches that their way is the one “right way” to a happy end. We should be careful of not leading ourselves into circular or irrational arguments as featured in the “Islam versus Christianity” piece by Colbert (http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2006/islam-christianity-p1.php).
So, to Jamir, when you say that ultimately, Allah is the one true God, I could say that Jesus is the one true God. Who is right? Whatever evidence either of us could provide would be based on faith – there is no foundational basis, scientifically proven through evidence, that would attest to any god existing. That is why religion is based on faith, and we should never, especially in Singapore, enter into a relgion-religion debate.
Also, it is not just Christians, but also adherents of other religions such as those from the Association, that try to help the community but find it hard to divorce religion from their good intentions, as I indicated above. This discussion is not about attacking any religion or the logical coherence of any relgion, but about the expression of religious beliefs.
To Daryl, thank you once again for engaging us in this discussion. Personally, I am proud that Victorians can be so mature in the course of this argument, unlike some of the outsiders we have seen.
September 7, 2008 at 5:32 pm |
Haha, well, I suppose I get the honor of posting the 100th comment to this post. I kinda stopped myself from replying here, on the advice of friends who feared me being sucked into a long drawn out argument and neglecting to study. It’s Prelims tomorrow, and good luck to everyone.
I am glad that the discussion here has remained civil, and I hope that my posts and the comments here provide food for thought to anyone interested.
To Mark, actually, I think that’s a very interesting point. The issue is: how far should religious groups hide their religious identity when doing good? My instinctive response is, in a secular, multicultural context, probably as much as possible.
To me, if a religious group wants to do good, that is an excellent thing. But if it wants to do good, and at the same time receive favorable publicity for its religion, then we have to look very carefully into its effects. Intentions, may still be good; effects not so much.
September 8, 2008 at 1:17 am |
それではこんなどうでもいい文に時間を使ってしまったあなた。長々と書き連ねてすみませんでした。久しぶりに う Allah こそしてないですけど作ったやつを聴いてもらえる!とか舞い上がってしまい、なんかたくさん書いてしまいました。 あ、2次創作、って言い方があまり好きじゃないのですが、作ったぜ!う God していい?とかそういうのは特に許可 とか要りません。基本好きにやってください、ということで。よくわからない点、要望とかあれば、面倒かもですがメールでお願いしますー。
amir
September 8, 2008 at 1:18 am |
To Gwen,
How am I imposing my religious beliefs on you and your Christians? I am spreading the love of Islam. And if you support Christian evangelism, surely you must also support my belief of spreading Islam here. Just as the other 20 over pro Christian comments here that seemingly “impose” their beliefs on non-Christians, I am voicing mine.
When I say Allah is the one true God, you should rationalised my intention as an altruistic concept to save all you sinners and to return to Allah Almighty as the best religion among the other 9 “good” religions.
It is clearly you are biased against Islam. While you say “trying to curb evangelism is also curbing their right to free speech” for the Christians, you say “By doing this you are not respecting other peoples’ religions and therefore the constitutional rights of Singaporeans” to Islam. As you Christians evangelise God, you are not respecting and rejecting atheists, Islam and other religions as well. If you were to rationalise Christian evangelisms as altruist, then you should also rationalised the hundred other religions like FSM that evangelise their cause as an altruistic concept to share the love of their Gods and to save your souls. I will not rationalise any other religions because what they do to help others is in the name of their God, it is my firm believe that there can only be one true God who is Allah Almighty. May I then ask what is your belief or your meaning of life and how is it able to rationalise with many religions which these religions are unable to rationalise with each other? Certainly believers in FSM will take their stand that their “God” is true or there is no God which will conflict with other religions.
I see no fault on my part to say that Allah is the one true God in the context of this discussion since you Christians were the first to drift away from the topic and announce your God as the one true God, and they seem to be the same Christians that put up the posters and don’t think I don’t know they have their Church singing and preaching in school. However in the context of our secular institutions, there should not be such allowance. Unless you were to argue that tudongs should also be allowed in schools which I feel is an altruistic concept against sexual immorality.
How have I insulted other religions? I am merely speaking the Truth in Islam as you Christians evangelise your God which by doing this you are not respecting other religions. Clearly Islam denounces false religions. Unless you say Islam and Christianity to be equally the Truth and “good”, there will always be conflicts of beliefs. However these conflicts should be set aside to promote harmony in our secular intuitions for the good of nurturing our young.
Praise to Allah. May Allah have mercy on you.
jamir m. achmed
September 8, 2008 at 1:38 pm |
Jamir, I hope that you will not be insulted or offended by what I say.
Firstly, you clearly are not from our school, and do not know what goes on. We are a secular institution and any overtly explicit expression of our religions , such as preaching or singing, is done more or less privately.
Secondly, you cannot generalise about a whole religion from the experiences or interactions you have had from the people of that religion you have met. For example, it seems to me that most Christians you have met are “arrogant and uncaring”, but the religion does not teach one to be such. This is akin to saying that all Muslims are radical and dangerous from the acts we have seen in the past, when they are clearly not. This is the paradox of the heap.
I respect your right to believe in Allah and Islam, but I believe you should restrain yourself from making unfounded claims about 1) my school, 2) any religion.
September 8, 2008 at 7:01 pm |
I am merely speaking the Truth in Islam as you Christians evangelise your God which by doing this you are not respecting other religions. – jamir
hey jamir :) really not being rude or anyth, i just find this statement contradictory.
and truly sorry if the Christians you know have made you feel the way you do about us.
& mark got it right at the point.. :)
STUDY HARD FRIENDS
September 8, 2008 at 10:08 pm |
Hi guys, i’m a student from NJC who chanced upon this blog. I found the first entry rather intriguing in terms of subject matter, and read the comments following what Daryl said in his post.
There seems to be a rather intense discussion about religion and the boundaries that have to be taken in a secular school ( Which I am in one too ) and I would rather not comment on it.
However, I would like to applaud the ‘We are very Happy’ group for their kind intentions to spread a little joy and care to the community of VJC students. I myself have been on the receiving end of such little acts of kindness by random strangers, some even from other schools and I feel extremely touched by their step of faith, boldness and their heart reaching out to people around them, even strangers they barely know. Amidst this banter, I believe that some credit should be given to this group who has put in such hard work and effort in a bid to show some love to their fellow schoolmates, shouldn’t it? They shouldn’t be slammed for just being, well nice.
Just airing my personal thoughts.
:)
All the best for impending prelims/A’s!
September 8, 2008 at 11:12 pm |
this is hilarious daryl.
i know i’m pretty late in commenting, but i can’t believe such a simple (not the content mind you, its mind boggling) post could inspire so many comments.
i’m christian, and i have hardly any complaints with the post, though of course it is a bit, colloquailly placed, bitchy (sorry daryl (: ) but hell everyone has a right to be.
my objections, yes i object to the posters, are in a nutshell similar. i know i may potentially be shooting myself in the foot, what with my religion and all, but my take on christian evangelisation has always been that there should be a clear line and limit, and i do not approve of overt and explicit persistant evangelisation (pardon me my spelling is horrid). i can’t be bothered to read all the comments…(daryl you have like 3 or 4 posts within these comments alone man lol), but i think people should stop taking such a huge, or any, objection to his views.
also…here again i’m taking a huge step to getting myself in trouble…but i think if you’re running a movement placing pictures up and all, you should should stand by the true motives of your movement.
“we just want to tell everyone we’re happy”
seriously.
if you do, don’t leave an email.
i mean, you know the majority of us already know what its more or less about, so be proud of it and defend yourself! haha
remember evangilisation was never made out to be easy, though i respect the idea that you’re making it the viewers choice to find out and hear what you have to say, if that was your point, or if you want more people to join in, then say it and don’t hide behind anything.
heh, i just feel like everyone has a right to an opinion and a religion.if someone wants to believe in a flying monster(which i find very interesting (: ) let him beee.
remember God gave us all a choice and he/she respected it enough to let some stupid man eat a stupid apple.
if he could do that, i’m sure he could let daryl express his views and not be so adamant about proving anything in opposition.
and simply saying god bless you at the end of your reply is soooo not gonna help when your post is full of clearly angsty opposition.
heres a rare sight, me quoting the bible,
love your neighbour as you would love yourself.
the greatest commandment.
can’t you just let him be haha.
<3
and seriously haha allah shouldn’t be part of this at all man.
September 8, 2008 at 11:17 pm |
i realise the defend yourself thing is quite contradictory, what i mean to say is if you choose to reply to this, then defend yourself outright and not be, argh, wishy washy!, about it all. lol
September 8, 2008 at 11:25 pm |
I should really be doing like..continuity corrections or something, but no one wants to talk to me or reply to my posts!
-Aaron is sad. Aaron goes to check email before wasting more paper doing sums to internalise useless rubbish he’ll forget in like… 2 months’ time and, hopefully, never have to remember again. Have fun at prelims, all the sad people who are bothering to keep up with this posts gazillion replies.
September 9, 2008 at 11:28 am |
WOAHHH I think my reaction to this is ONE OF THE LATEST! Sorry I’ve been hiding out in my Hermit Shell (ie study room). Haha this is all very interesting but there is no way I’m about to get caught up in this. Congratulations, Daryl! FSM whoooooooo
September 9, 2008 at 11:28 am |
Alright, i see that there has been a rather long arguement regarding this one post of Daryl’s and also, based on various perspectives.
Daryl does not mean any harm, i can see that his post is generally based on his personal views. However, i feel that things should be handled more wisely in future. Religion is a highly sensitive issue.
As a passerby of this website, i see no harm in putting up posters claiming that “we are very happy”, why?
There’s nothing religious about it.
Its simply about a group of students who has experienced God and thus, they’re happy. The intention of putting up those posters are simply to spread the happiness. Not to force religion on anyone as it all boils down to one’s choice, dont you think?
Imagine you hate eating durians, and your mother forces you to eat durians. There is nothing you can do to make her force you to eat durians isn’t it? Unless she takes out a cane and force you to.
Same goes to these posters. These posters are simply a clear remark of how real God is in these student’s lives. (In this case, its the remark of the mother eating a durian and say “its so nice! i love durians”)
It is not a cane, merely a comment.
And Daryl, i understand how you feel, many of my friends feel this way as well.
There was a comment about faith earlier.
What is faith?
faith is believing without seeing.
And right now, i can say that many of my friends who used to feel like you, now understand when they know Jesus.
You will never understand unless you believe.
However, i respect your views.
And i’ll be praying for you.
There’s so much more about God that you dont know of.
I am happy, they’re happy, what about you?
September 10, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
Bravo. Nice debate.
I will make it clear: I’m a J2 student, much like many here, though I’m no Victorian. I’ve had my dealings with Victorians in the past, not all pleasant, and I confess my surprise that such blatant religious overtures are present there. It certainly had escaped my eye previously. Neither am I a follower of any Abrahamic faith, though I justifiably consider myself a spiritual individual.
There’s 1 problem I would like to address: the use of the term ’secular’. It requires disambiguation. ‘Secular’ here seems to refer to an atheist or at least agnostic stand? Then in that case it has been poorly applied to Singapore.
It is a matter of fact that institutions in Singapore openly embrace religious practices. Our military officers are collectively blessed by a group representing the major local faiths upon graduation, as are our warplanes, ships etc upon commission. These are hallmarks of a multi-religious society as opposed to a secular one, where the institutions of government would expressly forbid such activities.
In light of that, Singapore is not the secular state you seem to assume it is. It simply allows all faiths an equal degree of freedom and representation.
Institutionally speaking, the government abides by this de facto policy in handling public expressions/impositions of faith: expressions are allowed insofar as they promote a value other than themselves.
For example, blessing our military officers so that they may perform in the defence of our nation is permitted; to call upon them to defend the nation in the name of God is not. Religion acts as an invocation, not a cause in itself. The latter would resemble a theocracy, which is definitively forbidden here.
Following this line of argument, the conclusion is simply that the alleged posters are clearly not institutionally permissible. The cards wishing fellow schoolmates good luck in their examinations, on the other hand, are. The former would dictate acceptance of a faith not necessarily your own and you may find it justifiably offensive; the latter evokes God’s blessings on a common obstacle we all face. It is more a gesture of solidarity and friendship. You would need to be incredibly arrogant, biased or egotistical to reject that.
Thus far, I have offered a pragmatic argument. Epistemologically, I would like to point out that along the way, the post seems to have been hijacked. It no longer answers its own subject matter of expression of religious views, twisting somewhat to become the classic God-exists-versus-God-does-not-exist debate.
This is frankly speaking a waste of time, though not in the sense articulated by others before me. The atheist argument is essentially a sceptical one which employs the use of doubt via reason.
It is immediately invalidated; in order to contest an opposing claim validly, you need to contest it directly on a common ground. Faith by its very nature excludes doubt completely and doubt cannot exist in its presence. There is no point in employing one against another.
Similarly, by acknowledging that your own views on theology have been shifted by rational argument, doubt and reason, your mind is closed to faith. Your stand would demand evidence, and evidence is precisely what faith excludes, and demands for it cannot be tolerated by faith.
There is quite simply no point of contention. To question faith with doubt and evidence is much like cupping water with your hands; much the wrong tool for the wrong work.
Not that I advocate the topic be abandoned in its entirety. That would be foolish, not to mention intellectually lazy. The problem has stemmed from trying to argue in the abstract, where they share no common ground for contention to take place. However, if we instead shift it onto specific tangible issues, like what the post raises, then we can engage in a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion.
The issue itself becomes the point of contention and allows for sensible argument. It is a common pitfall for duelists sparring over such a topic to succumb to the abstract. Quickly they grow frustrated and tire of the debate, eventually abandoning all hope of resolution. Resolution is possible so long as we can avoid that trap.
The religious and atheist camps may sadly never be reconciled and their differences resolved, but the direct impacts of conflicts between them, such as this poster and expression subject, definitely can. That is what we need to focus on, not digressing and wasting our vigour on the abstract where no argument exists in the first place.
September 12, 2008 at 9:42 pm |
thank you piaroh-cze.
ive gotten very tired of trying to argue with the part of this whole commentry that has gone to that very irritating part.
i hope your comment brings it back on track.
to chanb:
the idea was to tell people we were happy, get them curious about why we’re happy, give some recollections about the cards, and if the individuals probe further, we want to evangelise.
but alas, it did not turn out so well, so even though we are still very happy, for a while we were quite sad to see how the poster thing turned out. ohwell.
Hang in there everybody, prelims ending.
God bless :)
September 14, 2008 at 1:06 am |
you guys are nuts. seriously, just move on and don’t be bothered by what daryl said.
September 14, 2008 at 7:59 pm |
Geez, you guys. The presence of trolls in this comment section of a blog post is amusing. However, you guys responding actively to the trolls is ten times more amusing. I reckon the trolls are feeling pretty gratified at their successful trolling.
Another point of amusement is how Daryl’s view on religion was dragged out of him by a few who were commenting here. Note that his blog post did not feature much in terms of view on the religions – it is in fact the work of the comments that questioning his beliefs and views. This culminated in an immense climax of amusement when Daryl’s views were disregarded and dismissed (that he is a wall that would not budge, ha ha); and that is after they were unable defeat his reasoning. Way to go.
It won’t be very amusing of me to just deviate from the original point of the post – after all this is the comment section of the said post. Hence I would have a few words on the matter. The source of all these amusement, the posters, left me incredibly UNAMUSED. Granted, the posters alone do not bear any religious connotations, be it subtle or obvious. Based on that alone, I would agree that the posters are not inherently offensive.
My source, or rather lack of, amusement is from the fact that it is apparent what would ultimately be advised to those who approach the poster’s authors – the magnificence of their God. Until the authors could prove (or promise) that in their bid to share with us how to be happy they would not quote their God in any form or manner they MUST admit that their posters were religiously insensitive. It is no rare sight to see groups of Christians partaking in evangelical acts, and the mere presence of the Christians (and 5 of them, no less) in each of the posters would provide many with suspicion, if not confirmation, that it is an act of evangelism. Therefore I am terribly unamused.
Thank you very little and have a nice day.
(P.S. O wow more amusement – no less than two of my own classmates commented here)
September 16, 2008 at 12:38 am |
To all Christians involved here,
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.”
“Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.”
(Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10)
Quoted from:
http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html
Debate no more.
It is said that ‘For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice.’
The belief in God is the inspiration of the soul. Not a logical conclusion that is deduced by the mind. Touch the heart of others, but not through a debate.
September 17, 2008 at 1:04 am |
Firstly, I am sure that the christian group in our school does not mean any harm and surely do not wish to insult other religions or make it such that their religion is more superior. I also support Daryl’s view in saying that religious expressions should be allowed if and only if all forms of religion and anti religious expressions can be allowed. I would like to add a little to that, that is those views must not be extreme views. Since the christian group has already expressed their views and no action has been taken against them, then i suppose the school allows people to express their religious beliefs publicly, which are not too extreme. A nicer way to put it, sharing their beliefs with us. Hence, i believe that there is no point arguing about this anymore.
Another issue on the rising tide of Christain evangelism. What a great issue raised by daryl, I must say. Indeed there has been an increasing number of christians, not only in singapore but all over the world. However a handful of these people just blindly convert themselves to these religions just because of peer pressure and media influence. When u go to some churches, you can clearly see that a number of them is just there to socialise, making more friends. Whether or not they really believe and follow what they have been preached is another thing. It’s one of the “in” things in secondary schools and junior colleges – go to church. Through media, people have seen celebrities expressing their religious beliefs, eg. Jonas Brothers wearing promise rings- promise to god that they will not have sex before marriage. There will be no doubt that a certain number of fans will just follow suit. One of my friends, a buddhist, was approached by a christian every weekend to share about their christian beliefs, publicizing their own activities even though the statue of buddha is just placed right at the door! You can see the extent of the Sharing of chistian views! While the christians think that it is okay to spread their happiness and beliefs, others might feel frustrated over these actions because to them, it is like saying that christianity is better than your religion. This world is increasingly being westernised, christianised. Everyone says Oh My God nowadays. Seldom you will hear people saying Oh My Buddha or Oh My Allah. The reason why many people didnt raise any eyebrows when the councillor said god bless after the annoucements, is because we are use to christianity being publicly expressed. If someone goes up and make an announcement, and after which he ends off with May Allah have mercy on you, or Amitabha. Imagine that. One, either that there will be bursts of laughter, or two, there will be cries of frustration and boos. Why? Because of the all the influences from media and others that we have been in contact with.
The contents below are my own beliefs, opinions. No harm meant.
I have always wondered why the world is split into different religions? We are increasingly being categorised. Why? The world is full of war, disease, death, destruction, hunger, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and here we are, the human race, busy solving the differences of our own religions? I mean how stupid can we be? Do you realise that numerous war and conflicts happened because one of the reasons is due to differences in religion? We should actually put aside our differences and try to think of ways to save ourselves before the human race gets eliminated.
Religions have actually convinced people that there is someone up there who creates the things around us and loves you. This we cannot disprove or prove because of the limtations of our knowledge to this date. We are just made up of organic compounds, molecules, atoms, electrons, protons, neutrons. The electrical signals that goes to our brain from the nerves trigger the different feelings that we experience -love, hate, anger. Once we die, our bodies will disintegrate into particles again. It is a natural cycle that has been happening on earth for around 4 and a half billion years and will go on till the day earth explodes or the conditions for life no longer exist. The very reason why we are on this planet is because earth is at a suitable range from our sun, and thus suitable temperature to allow growth and water to be at liquid at this temperature. After which atoms and molecules such as carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen chemically combined to give the first signs of life. Imagine scaling down the timeline of earth, 0000 yesterday being the birth of earth and the next 0000 to be today. You are taking this 24 hours to be the 4.5 billion years of earth. At 0000, creation of earth. Life begins at 5am and grows in complexity ( where molecules combined to form complexes). About 8pm, the first mollusks appear. Dinosuars appear at 1100pm but disappear at 1140pm. The human race appears at 1155pm. And industrial revolution began in the last hundredth of a second. The human race just merely started for five minutes and here we are having wars and diseases, and our actions have sparked off natural disasters – ozone holes, global warming. Are we going to last longer than the dinosaurs, are we going to be just another failed mutation, a biological mistake? We have been talking about saving the planet, but we cant even save ourselves and we are talking about saving the planet? Human race will be wiped out because of the drastic living conditions that we have created ourselves. The planet will be still doing fine. Maybe another species that can adapt to the new environment will come out for another million years just like the dinosaurs or the human race.
But we dont want this to happen. We have to save ourselves. But what are we doing now? Dividing ourselves instead of coming together as one. I believe that religions are good too. In some way, they helped the followers to become a better person, better behavious etc. We should build on that and come together as one and not kill each other because of some religion differences.
Hence, we should just put aside everything, pause and think. Come together as one and save each other.
Have a nice day :) (a better way of ending)
September 17, 2008 at 1:21 am |
Hi,
What if God is real? And at the end of your life you come to the conclusion that you needed God all along?
Just asking =)
September 17, 2008 at 1:37 am |
Well.. I suppose I’ll be too in pain while suffering in hell to answer that question.
September 17, 2008 at 9:39 am |
Why is there even people from Saudi Arabia posting here about the consequences should this happen in their country? This happened in the local context where religious tolerances are not as stringent compared to Saudi Arabia.
Personally, I think this group didn’t commit any blatant offence/ crime to deserve such criticisms from some people here. They were just offering help to those who feel they might need it. Those who want to respond to their posters will do so and that’s entirely their business.
September 17, 2008 at 11:06 am |
May you be struck by my dick in your conscience, MT. Allah will smite you down.
mujahideen amir
September 17, 2008 at 11:21 am |
Okay, whatever you say. Let’s not get into religious warfare here?
September 17, 2008 at 7:20 pm |
Mujahideen is clearly a troll; I ask that he not be given the dignity of reply.
September 17, 2008 at 8:33 pm |
I address the individual(s) representing “Piaroh-Cze”, by support or virtue of the individual per se legally recognised as “Piaroh-Cze”, and, and not only limited by the logical conjunction, the generic extensions which may follow, with my following analysis.
I preface three declarative propositions, which are embedded and satisfied in the following statements:
- As a trivial clause, I have a simple educational background: its origin can be traced to Columbia University, whence I, at best, acquired instruction in differential geometry under Richard Streit Hamilton, who had earlier discovered positive Ricci curvature for 3-manifolds, when I was 14. It is contestable but semantically, you may consider it as “home-schooling”. My understanding of “epistemology”, which you have brought up, is academically limited to 2 courses which I had cross-registered for at Harvard College, and backed by doctoral studies in first-order logic. I later, successfully, defended my viva voce in Mathematics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology at age 22, which followed with, and to which at present, a postdoctoral position in Hong Kong. As a non-trivial corollary of the preceding trivial clause, transititively, I know Therapist (Moi Sau-Fung (Ms.)).
- Only in reference to paragraphs 9 id est the implications framed in, “Thus far, I…,” and onwards do I concern myself.
- I have never received formal instruction in English, nor is it my preferred language. Therefore I will not produce any salient language affixed to the nature by which Ms. Moi had expressibly commented – and as I humble myself afore you (collectively), I expect no criticism to my language constraints.
Definition:
I subsume an auxiliary inversion not to predefine a restriction to my belief-poset but so as to underpin an ordinal, and only and or or for the purpose of determinacy as prior expressed as a dignity protocol(?).
As I am circumscribed – and rather tautologically – limited evidence, I only contrepeisen the simple conclusions that (1) your assertions are irrational if and only if your domain of discourse is first-order logic; and (2) your assertion(s) about the areas of interest is nonsense.
Lemma 1.1:
If your discourse is grounded in epistemology, then its domain is first-order logic.
(By “[pointing] epistemologically”, I assume that you, on admission, have produced, possessed, or whichever syntactically functorial verb deemed relevant, a discourse that is grounded in epistemology.)
Your discourse is grounded in epistemology.
Therefore, your domain of discourse is first-order logic.
Definition 2.1:
Nonsense is taken as a categorical mistake: that is, you impute affine properties to the areas of which cannot, and only and or or do not possess the properties ad definienda.
Argument 2.2.1
Your conclusion,
===================== QUOTE =====================
C: This is frankly speaking a waste of time.
===================== QUOTE =====================
is supported by the following intermediate conclusion:
===================== QUOTE =====================
IC1: There is quite simply no point of contention, i.e. “[the argument between the two] is immediately invalidated,” or “There is no point in employing one against another.”
===================== QUOTE =====================
which are in turn supported by the basic reasons
===================== QUOTE =====================
P1: The atheist argument is essentially a sceptical one which employs the use of doubt via reason
===================== QUOTE =====================
and
===================== QUOTE =====================
P2: Faith by its very nature excludes doubt completely and doubt cannot exist in its presence.
===================== QUOTE =====================
On counterargument, I assert the following:
(A) The argument leading to C is invalid, i.e. it does not follow necessarily. It is plausible, but it is a weak claim as it does not exhaust other elements of the set.
(B) IC1 does not follow from P1 and P2, even supposing P1 and P2 are true.
(C) P1 is a false premise.
(D) P2 is a false premise.
(E) I also debase your proposition that we should shift from “the abstract” onto specific tangible issue by application of this principle, i.e. I attempt to reduce to absurdism from your proposition.
The problem has stemmed from trying to argue in the abstract, where they share no common ground for contention to take place.
Argument 2.2.1.E
Firstly, take into consideration what you have proposed:
===================== QUOTE =====================
However, if we instead shift it onto specific tangible issues, like what the post raises, then we can engage in a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion.
===================== QUOTE =====================
This carries the following possible logical consequences:
‘“Arguing in the abstract” precludes the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues may not,’ or ‘“Arguing in the abstract” precludes the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues will not,’ or ‘“Arguing in the abstract” may preclude the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues will not,’ or “Arguing in the abstract” may preclude the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues may not.’
The last of which predicates the entire range of possibilities, and is therefore not a theorem derived of the set but a property of the set; moreover, it consists of conditionals that can be defended by your opposition – that is, those who would like to resume an argument between Islam and Christianity for instance. Therefore, supposing this desists any conclusion. Since you support either, only and only a meaningful discussion and a meaningful conclusion OR a meaningful discussion OR anything meaningful OR a conclusion, then if there is no conclusion, the first and last are not possible. This means that you can only be correct under the last of which only and only also under the condition that you support either
A meaningful discussion OR anything meaningful
Since “a meaningful discussion” is contained with no rank of quadratic form that allows its existence and continuity outside the neighborhood of “anything meaningful”, showing that “anything meaningful” is only, and only necessarily NOT (and not ‘not necessarily’) prevents the logical consequence of the last to be true. This is done in the corollary that follows, but for the structure of this argument, I now consider the other 3 possible consequences.
If we suppose ‘“Arguing in the abstract” precludes the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues may not,” OR ‘“Arguing in the abstract” precludes the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues will not,’ or is true, then ‘“Arguing in the abstract” precludes the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion’ must be true. Consider the refutation: we can have arguments in the abstract that we have to accept as meaningful discussions. I would exemplify this refutation with models of theoretical physics and first-order symbolic logic in Mathematics. Trivially, you have to accept this counterexample, therefore this supposition is false, and this cannot be a true logical consequence. Non-trivially, you can only accept this if I carry and remove the burden of disambiguating “meaningful”, which I would in the same corollary earlier addressed that follows, but for the structure of this argument, I now consider the last of the possible logical consequences, or the third of the four, in ordered determinacy.
If we suppose ‘“Arguing in the abstract” may preclude the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues will not,’is true, then ‘…shifting it onto specific tangible issues will not [preclude the possibility of “a meaningful discussion”’ has to be true. I will subject this to elimination under the twice addressed corollary that follows:
Corollary 2.2.1.E.1
There are two possibilities for this corollary, both of which are led to the conclusion that your suggestion is irrational, while establishing a semantic role for the term “meaningful”:
Sub-corollary 2.2.1.E.1.1
It is said that ‘“Arguing in the abstract” may preclude the possibility of a meaningful discussion with a meaningful conclusion, and shifting it onto specific tangible issues will not.’ This is ambiguated: what constitutes a meaningful discussion is taken for granted. Supposing you are correct that “they are arguing in the abstract”, certainly, if Jamir or Miss Moi considers a conclusion between atheist and theist grounds as meaningful, then your argument does not make sense. That is, arguing in the abstract implies a meaningful discussion AND not arguing in the abstract implies a meaningful discussion. Therefore, arguing in the abstract or not arguing in the abstract both imply a meaningful discussion. If a meaningful discussion is the criterion for the accepted domain of argument, then both may achieve that, hence your suggestion is irrational.
Sub-corollary 2.2.1.E.1.2
This sub-corollary can be applied for both sides, and hence I shall address it as follows:
Sub-corollary 2.2.1.E.1.2.A
An atheist makes the statement that, “All propositions in which the primum movens/deus has a primary occurrence are false.” The denials (and hence the role of a hypothetic skeptic) of such propositions are true, but in these cases the primum movens/deus has a secondary occurrence. Then the truth value of the proposition is not a function of the truth of the existence of the primum movens/dues but rather is only uniquely specified as a dichotomy of the possible truth or non-truth of existence. Therefore,
∃x[‘primum movens/deus(x)’ & NOT ‘primum movens/deus(x)’]
In other words, this is propositionally existentially qualified and quantified in symbolic logic. If there are no conjectural entities C(x) with property ‘primum movens/deus(x)’, the proposition “C(x) has property primum movens/deus(x) ” is false for all values of ‘NOT primum movens/deus(x)’.
Sub-corollary 2.2.1.E.1.2.A’
A theist makes the statement that, “All propositions in which the primum movens/deus has a primary occurrence are true irregardless of doubt.” The doubt/denials of such propositions are false, but in these cases the primum movens/deus has a secondary occurrence. Then ∃x[(‘primum movens/deus(x)’ & ∀x’ (primum movens/deus(x’) → x=x’)) & NOT “‘primum movens/deus(x)’ & ∀x’ (primum movens/deus(x’”]
In other words, this is propositionally existentially qualified and quantified in symbolic logic. If there are no conjectural entities C’(x) with property ‘primum movens/deus(x)’, the proposition “C’(x) has property primum movens/deus(x) ” is true for all values of ‘NOT primum movens/deus(x)’.
An idempotent and viable operandum is established in this framework, therefore quantifiably, and or or qualifiably, and or or verifiably, or and or or justifiably C(x) and C’(x) can be made inclusive of the assumptions of both, hence for which both of which are meaningful id est there is a meaningful discussion even between theists and atheists.
Argument 2.2.1.C
P1 is untrue. An atheist argument is not a skeptical one. By ‘a skeptical one’, you either imply only “consists of skepticism” or only unequivocally is only and only skeptical”. For completeness of my refutation, since you might be irrational because I don’t understand, semantically, why you paired “a skeptical [argument]” with “one skeptical [argument]” (these two are clearly different assertions, one skeptical argument is a skeptical if and only if it is unitary algebraically necessary, but a skeptical argument is a skeptical argument if it is antiautmorphistic coalegrabically sufficient; or on simpler terms, a skeptical argument is not necessarily one skeptical argument and a skeptical argument has non-unique properties to that of one skeptical argument) but even so I shall still prove you wrong on the same irrational grounds, I also consider an algebra and a unitary associative antiautomoprhistic coalegbra, that is, only “consists or skepticism” AND only unequivocally “is only and only is skeptical”.
It is easier to eliminate the claim that an atheist argument “only and only skeptical”. Skepticism, by definition takes the ground that it is true and justified that beliefs are ultimately unsupported. (Oxford Advanced Learners dictionary; on a side-note, people do argue that a skeptic makes a belief here and takes it as supported, but this is not the concern of my discussion and it has no relevance if it is true or false that this is a valid weakness) Atheism, by definition takes the ground that it is true and justified that there is, and only is “no god”. (Oxford Advanced Learners dictionary). Here, you make a categorical mistake:
There is “no god”.
And
There is no “god”, or better propositionally framed as: Not ‘there is “god”’.
are different. You would be correct if the latter is implied by atheism, but that would be misrepresenting their argument, and trivially, I take it that you accept the many other sources that would support that the former is the correct representation. Therefore, P1 is false.
Now, that the atheism argument “consists of skepticism” is more difficult. That is to say, if this is what you mean, then it is acceptable that an atheist is skeptical about some matters yet non-skeptical about others. However, on establishing that their argument is an affirmation of ‘There is “no god”,’ rather than a negation of ‘There is ‘god’’, this isn’t a problem. It is clear that they may be skeptical about anything else, but none of which concerns us, nor does it debase the common ground between atheist and theist. Therefore, P1 is false.
The algebraic AND a unitary associative antiautomoprhistic coalegbraic proposition is the most difficult to disprove. The conjunction ‘and’ in this sense manifests between the clauses it connects; it does not introduce a true subordinate clause that can be moved to the start of an independent clause, because a conjunctive adverb cannot do that – a superposition with the semantic role of ‘however’. So, I have to show a contradiction despite it being true AND it being false, while, however, true instead of false, OR however, false instead of true.:
x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”]
Then x[[[“God(x)Oax]y AND [[CyOay]y=x]]Bx]. And, however x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]Bxy] OR x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
AND x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] OR [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
Therefore, you are still wrong. P1 is still a false premise.
Argument 2.2.1.D
P2: Faith by its very nature excludes doubt completely and doubt cannot exist in its presence.
In the algebraic AND unitary associative antiautomoprhistic coalegbraic propositional case,
x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”]
Then x[[[“God(x)Oax]y AND [[CyOay]y=x]]God(x)]. And, however x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]God(xy)] OR x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
AND x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] OR [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
OR x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
However, x[[[“God(x)God(a=x)]y AND [[God(y)God(a=y)]y=x]]Bx]. Or x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]God(xy) However x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]Bxy] OR x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
AND x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)]. OR [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)]. Since x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)], then x[[[“God(x)God(a=x)]y AND [[God(y)God(a=y)]y=x]]Bx]. Or x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]God(xy) However x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]Bxy] OR x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
AND x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)]. OR [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)]. Hence, x[[[“God(x)God(a=x)]y AND [[God(y)God(a=y)]y=x]]Bx]. Or x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]God(xy) However x[[Fxz[Fzz=x]]y[[[Cyz[Czz=y]]Bxy] OR x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
AND x[[“God(x)”z[F(y)y=x]]y[[[“God(y)y[“God(y)”y=x]]God(xy)”] [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)]. OR [[“God(x)”z[“God(z)”z=x]]x=“God(xyz)”], x[[“God(x)”y[“God(y)”y=z]] “God(z)].
Therefore, P2 is false.
Instead consider the conventional case, where we consider the claim “Faith by its very nature excludes doubt completely and doubt cannot exist in its presence,” per se. This is clearly incorrect, you have a poor understanding of what is “doubt”. I don’t even understand what you mean by “excludes doubt”, nor why would that by synonymous with “doubt cannot exist in its presence”. You can clearly exclude doubt AND have doubt exist; you can also have doubt not exist AND not exclude doubt, in both cases, the logical conjunction “and” is falsely used. Therefore, P2 is still false. I can further elucidate this with some effort, but I will choose not to as I believe you are capable of comprehending it.
Argument 2.2.1.A
===================== QUOTE =====================
C: This is frankly speaking a waste of time.
===================== QUOTE =====================
Quantification, est operārī.
‘Since, “waste of time”, therefore “quantification”,” implies, “Quantification.”
Therefore, hac lege quia est porro consectetur operārī.
That is, you are, on admission, non-idempotent. This subtraheres any operandum within your framework. Ex ante, I affirm the antecedent and deduce that your assertions require operandum. Hence, a contradiction is reached. Intrasitively, your comments are irrational and nonsensical.
Hence, your argument reduces to an absurdism. (Argument 2.2.1.E [continued]).
Argument 2.2.1.B
Even assuming P1 and P2 are true (I have shown that, however, they are false and only false), it does not follow that, since your point of contention is different, that an argument between two is implausible (or that the conclusion(s) of which are invalid or only and only invalid, although it is clear that you mistakenly interuse “plausibility” and “validity” here)
The simplest example is how you can consider the plausibility of a scientific argument over another.
Suppose there exists a theory C that explains phenomena 1, 2, 3, exempli gratia particulate theory of matter. Suppose there exists another theory C’ that explains phenomena 4, 5, 6, 7.
Also, if you take the point of contention to be the basis of justification, then suppose there exists a proposition, justified by visual perception that the Earth is flat. There also exists a proposition, justified by a deductive logic from calculations made on a Riemannian manifold that a line across the surface of the Earth is elliptical, therefore the Earth is not flat. Both
Also, if you take the point of contention to be whether or not the basis of justification is true, that is, if you adopt a relativistic stand. Suppose there exists a proposition P(x) for which a person P1 has, noumenally from that of persons P2 and P3, hidden an object behind a veil. P2 and P3 have a contention whether or not visual perception, or for that matter, faith and rational justification are acceptable epistemic sources to discovering if there exists an object behind the veil. Abandoning the argument simply because a conclusion cannot be made as to the acceptable epistemic source does not imply anything about the fundamentally certifiable truth that there exists an object behind the veil. Analogizing this to our current circumstance, it doesn’t matter if the proponents of skepticism or faith are correct, there is an objectively certifiable proposition to be made. It also cannot be claimed that this fundamentally certifiable truth behind the veil is indeterminate within the domain of our argument: it can be claimed that we cannot determine within the domain of our argument as to whether proponents of skepticism or faith is correct and only correct. However, this claim does not imply anything about claims as to whether or not the Islamic Allah or Christian interpretation is correct. Nor are the claims congruent, as you put it.
Argument 2.2.2
I conclude that your argument is nonsensical and irrational.
Dr. Kovalev (S.B (MIT), S.M (MIT), Sc.D (MIT)).
September 17, 2008 at 8:40 pm |
Corrections (omitted parts):
Suppose there exists a theory C that explains phenomena 1, 2, 3, exempli gratia particulate theory of matter. Suppose there exists another theory C’ that explains phenomena 4, 5, 6, 7, [exempli gratia ether theory. Ether theory can be falsified if it does not explain either 4, 5, 6 or 7, while if particulate theory of matter satisfies the explanations for 1, 2 and 3, it is accepted. When we compare the two, they are based on different premises - there is no common point of contention as to their premises, yet we can decide which is the superior argument so to speak.]
Also, if you take the point of contention to be the basis of justification, then suppose there exists a proposition, justified by visual perception that the Earth is flat. [There also exists a proposition, justified by a deductive logic from calculations made on a Riemannian manifold that a line across the surface of the Earth is elliptical, therefore the Earth is not flat. There is no common point of contention to their justifications, but we can decide which is the superior argument so to speak.]
Regards,
Dr. Kovalev (S.B (MIT), S.M (MIT), Sc.D (MIT)).
September 17, 2008 at 8:48 pm |
pharohze you are good, you call muslims are troll.
mujahideen amir
September 17, 2008 at 9:03 pm |
Mr. Mujahideen, I am certain that is not what he had meant.
Piaroh-Cze, I hope you can read through my messages carefully to understand where you had clearly went wrong. I do not have the time to return, nor the inclination to commit this site to my memory and explain any further, for my research is due in 3 months’ time. You have my (and perhaps Ms. Moi’s) best wishes, for I hope my provisions have improved, or provided any intermediary step to which, your primitive understanding in the elementaries of philosophical discourse, that in due time, you may use at your disposal.
Last regards,
Dr. Kovalev (S.B (MIT), S.M (MIT), Sc.D (MIT)).
September 18, 2008 at 12:47 am |
Dr. Kovalev, you have clearly wasted your time, as most of us are currently at the jc level, and are pretty clueless about what you have just said. Could you simplify your analysis so that it is comprehensible to us?
September 18, 2008 at 8:17 am |
He seems to know quite well what he is saying, though I confess it is very much beyond me. Since it is ‘nonsensical and irrational’ as he claims, and I assume that he knows what he is saying, I would suppose that I have to concede I have made a poor argument, or at least a poor use of words. Hopefully I can find the will and time to make a better one in the future.
September 19, 2008 at 12:07 am |
This is some heated debate.
I personally feel that they don’t mean any harm & besides, they didn’t explicitly say that they’re happy because of God or anything that might imply their religion. If they had done so, then it might be justified to get riled up over this “Evangelism”.
I am a non-Christian & I do feel a little uncomfortable over the “God Bless” in announcements made to the school. But all in all, they didn’t mean any harm did they?
I really have to commend this entry though, it was really well argued & eloquent. I would have never been able to churn that out. So, I’m really impressed. & I’m even more taken aback by the massive comments over this. Some of the commentswere, in my honest opinion, very provoking & some rather unjustified.
Religion is a very touchy issue. & to the people here who strongly protested over this entry, Wouldn’t it be best if you just take it as his own opinion & stop debating over it, as it will have no end. We know you believe in your God, & others believe in theirs too.
Lastly, I really agree with Daryl that Faith is blind belief. It’s our choice to think that way & people should respect that too, just like we respect each other’s religious beliefs in this “secular state”.
:) Have a good day.
September 19, 2008 at 12:10 am |
oh & didn’t Daryl said at the side of his post that
“Secondly, if you think you are going to be offended by what you’re going to read, DON’T. I will not be held responsible for any emotional upheaval or trauma you might have after reading this.”? It’s all about choices people.
September 19, 2008 at 12:44 am |
exactly! didnt the column on the left say enough to show that’s just daryl’s opinion? anyway i feel the message could have been clearer if it was totally not evangelistic, like ‘Stay happy. chins up, etcetc”. perhaps the lack of clear intentions resulted in this debate in the first place. but oh well since the debates really extensive alr, lets move on!:))
September 20, 2008 at 9:37 pm |
Wow. I hadn’t come to my own blog for a while, and it seems like the discussion has continued. I’m quite glad that people seem to be keeping it civil and are exercising restrain, despite some occasional outbursts. Hence, I’m glad that I haven’t had to censor anything, except for deleting some spam posts.
I have pretty much said most of what I wanted to say, but I just wanted to elaborate on one more point.
It seems to be a very popular view that faith and rationality cannot be reconciled; that we cannot use reason to justify faith. Hence, we hear people like Piaroh-Cze speaking about how between faith and reason, “There is quite simply no point of contention. To question faith with doubt and evidence is much like cupping water with your hands; much the wrong tool for the wrong work.”
If you want to argue that, by definition, religious beliefs excludes the use of reasoning to be justified, then fine. However, then you would have to accept that faith is irrational, in the ordinary sense of the word rational. You would have to accept that faith is blind belief. You would have to accept that all that you call evidence for God already makes the assumption that God exists.
On the other hand, there are religious people who would say that reason and religious beliefs are not incompatible, but in fact, rational thought actually supports such and such religious beliefs. Hence, we have people trying to promulgate intelligent design or creationism.
It is with these people, who try to rationalize their religious beliefs, that I mainly disagree with. I have not heard one argument for why religious belief is rational that is not circular or self defeating. If belief in God is rational because the Bible said so, then what makes the Bible true? This is a circular argument. If intelligent design says that everything complex had to have a designer, who designed the designer? This is a self defeating argument.
In fact, upon closer examination, one is inevitably led to the conclusion that the religious make up reasons for why religious beliefs are rational for the sole reason to persuade others to join them. The hope is that by shrouding religious beliefs in reasonable sounding words, others might mistakenly think that religious beliefs is rational.
Therefore, you cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot tell me that faith is outside the domain of rational thought and that faith is justified by rational thought. Either you say: a) My belief in God is a leap of faith I take, despite the lack of evidence. In which case, you’d have to admit that at least in the realm of religious beliefs, you suspend your everyday rationality. Or, b) I believe in God because of the evidence and hence religious belief is rational, not blind belief. In which case, I would argue that you would be mistaken, and would challenge you to present your reasons.
I think many people try to adopt both positions a) and b). When it suits them, they fling position a) as a shield to deflect criticisms religious beliefs are not rational. At other times, they flail position b) to try to convince others that their religious beliefs are rational. Yet to adopt both a) and b) is simply to be inconsistent.
So this is basically what I have got to say to the whole “faith and rationality are incompatible” point. If you believe they are incompatible, you’d agree that faith is irrational. If you believe they are compatible and that faith is supported by rational thought, you would be mistaken.
September 21, 2008 at 10:02 am |
I’ll have to agree and disagree with you at once.
Your argument makes a simple assumption ‘not rational = irrational’. Aside from that, it seems to imply that I asserted faith to be rational. If I have misled you somewhere, I apologise, for I make no such claim.
What I do claim will challenge both assumptions, because I claim that faith lies outside of rationality entirely. So yes, I’ll have to agree with you on the definition.
I cannot agree with following argument though. It may have been partly my fault for not being clear enough. I quote myself: “evidence is precisely what faith excludes”.
Since I already deny the existence of evidence for faith, then I need not “accept that all that you call evidence for God already makes the assumption that God exists”. There is no evidence in the first place.
The metaphor of cupping water was additionally meant as an illustration of what I mean by wrong tool for the wrong work, as well as why I object to a rational-irrational dichotomy. I now realise my explanation inadequate.
Employing reason against a faith-based argument is like cupping water with your hands. Just as reason would conclude the argument irrational, so would the your hands conclude that water cannot be collected by a receptacle. Faith is not something we can adequately question with reason, just as water is not something we can collect using just our hands.
The crux of the point is simply that irrationality is not a logically sufficient reason use as an objection. It is necessary as ‘cupping water with hands is impossible’ is necessary for ‘collecting water using any receptacle is impossible’, yet insufficient. I trust you will get what I mean.
Of course, this goes both ways. Rationality is similarly insufficient for any theological argument. It might make it more palatable, but it by no means has the last word. So here we find ourselves back in agreement.
With regard to your options (a) and (b), the latter I have clearly attempted to debunk. For the former, I dispute the use of ‘despite’ due to its implication of evidence being sufficient. If you can find a better way to express what you mean I’ll be inclined to think we can extend our agreement even more.
Our hands are not flawless receptacles and neither is our reason the perfect multi-purpose tool.
September 21, 2008 at 4:04 pm |
Piaroh-Cze,
1. Not rational is equal to irrational. I see no reason why there should be a distinction, nor have you provided any. Simply put, if you have no rational grounds to believe what you believe, then your belief is irrational. Sounds like a simple, intuitive understanding of rationality and irrationality to me.
2. Sure, you may claim that to criticize religious faith as irrational may not be “logically sufficient” to reject religious faith completely. I would disagree, but that’s not the point. My point is that religious faith is irrational. Hence, showing that religious faith is irrational is definitely sufficient, since that’s what I’m trying to prove in the first place.
After showing that religious beliefs are irrational, it is then up to each individual to decide whether or not they want to be irrational or not, and hence whether they want to “reject faith completely”.
3. You seem to be saying that we cannot use reason to criticize faith because faith excludes reason. This is basically what I called position a).If you adopt that position, you would be agreeing that faith cannot be justified on rational ground, and is hence not rational, hence irrational. Like I said, the not rational=irrational identity is valid and you’ve not shown us otherwise.
4. Criticizing reason as “imperfect” is self defeating, since human reasoning is the best we have. You cannot divorce yourself from your own human reasoning, and hence when you use human reasoning to criticize human reasoning (by merely suggesting that “we cannot know for sure that our reasoning is perfect”), you are just being self defeating.
Apologies if I have misunderstood you. All you seem to be saying is that reason is not a “right tool” for evaluating religious beliefs. If that is your stand, then I see no difference between your position and position a) that I have already dealt with.
September 21, 2008 at 11:14 pm |
hey daryl! haha i won’t be back,to this post, so update or smth yep?
i just thought i had to say this to my fellow Muslim brothers/sisters who tagged: Have respect. Islam did not teach us to slam others like this. This is not what we do. Trust in what we know, but don’t slam. If you’re not intending to do good, it’s best to leave, and say nothing at all.
September 22, 2008 at 6:47 am |
The fundamental rule of my religion is to start mornings with duels. I believe the world is a better place if we can all do so rather than wasting time with posters.
MARTIAL ARTS ARE FUN.
September 22, 2008 at 6:37 pm |
You are likely to have indeed misunderstood me, though I suppose I cannot blame you for it.
My apologies, I missed this in my absent-mindedness. Not rational = non-rational, and not necessarily irrational. Unless you choose to define irrationality as anything that does not fall under rationality, whereas I prefer it as that for which reason is the correct tool but fails the test of rationality.
Non-rational faith excludes reason, you are correct in stating that I assert that. You clearly deem rationality to be a necessary condition for accepting any argument; so now with this disambiguation, I hope I have successfully made it clearer.
Additionally, please note that I do not wholly disagree with (a), only that it implies how rationality is a necessary condition for any belief. It is not, in fact I would go so far as to say that this is true by definition.
My aim is more of attempting to show how instead of a rational-irrational dichotomy, a third non-rational state is possible, where reason is simply an inadequate, incorrect or imprecise means.
I cannot comprehend your (4). I am arguing that reason is not for the use of critiquing faith, whereas our jousting here consists of questioning each other’s reason. I do not see the contradiction and hence the self-defeat you speak of.
If you adopt the general perspective that reason is the best way of knowing, that we find ourselves in line. However, in that case you seem to adopt a much more extreme stand I do; I tend to regard even reason to have its limits, especially attempted to be employed against faith. I regret that you stress ‘perfect’ instead of ‘multi-purpose’, which would be closer to my emphasis.
September 23, 2008 at 3:50 pm |
Daryl, I am compelled to say that this has gotten out of hand. Not because of us Victorians, especially you, you understand, but by strangers who have no familiarity with the context of VJC whatsoever. Anyway, all the best for the results coming up!
September 23, 2008 at 8:55 pm |
As a Christian I have to say your argument is sound although I may not agree.
Some parts, in which I take issue with, are:
“The school should be neutral, as should all student leadership bodies (SC announcements must not end with “God Bless”)”
I think it should be up to the speaker, so what if it “offends” others, are we that petty?
Another thing,
“Though I shudder at the prospect of increased authoritarianism in what I feel is an area where we can afford to relax a little bit, it may just be that Christian evangelists have proven me wrong.”
The same should be said for “The worship of Al Gore” if you know what I mean, strange that you have not mentioned it right?
Lastly,
What is wrong with “becoming increasingly religious”? As long as they don’t try and chop off my head during a “glorious Jihad” I don’t really care.
September 25, 2008 at 6:04 pm |
“I think it should be up to the speaker, so what if it “offends” others, are we that petty?”
You make light of the situation; I cannot remember the number of times Christians have turned up on my door step preaching God’s words. I do not recall any such people from the Mosque or the Temples knocking on my door preaching about their God(s). Mind you, I have clearly dictated my lack of interest in Christianity, yet they nonetheless choose to ignore, or just send different people up to my house. And they are all from the church in my neighbourhood, so ignorance of my apathy towards Christianity is not very valid here as an excuse. The frequency and intensity of their attempts gives me only frustration, not appreciation of their God. Combined with the abundance of evangelists everywhere in public places the annoyance becomes harassment. It is therefore no surprise that many people can get incredibly annoyed from mentions of God and his blessings, no matter how trivial these mentions may appear.
Of course, that is not to say I am hostile towards all Christians. On the contrary I have many friends who are Christians. I am not about to attack your beliefs no matter how much I do not believe in them, hence stop pushing your beliefs towards me. Thank you very little for the concern but as long as your religion stays away from us I do not see a problem interacting with you. Perhaps instead of seeing us as “petty”, you should realize that what is done is rather “insensitive”.
September 25, 2008 at 6:33 pm |
kamina,
I have to agree with you on the “harassment”, I am strictly against such ways of touting God as if he was a sales item.
However, when attending a speech, whether you agree with the speaker or not, he/she has the right to speak plainly about faith. My mention was towards public speaking, not roadside or door-to-door evangelism.
Not to mention, I have never seen people from mosque or temples caring about whether we go to eternal damnation or not.
September 25, 2008 at 11:47 pm |
Sorry, please delete my previous post because of formatting issues.
MarkXXX: “Drive a stake through its heart and bury it under crossroads,” and insodoing, clear a doubt. On a personal level, I would say that you are bullshit-ing us with smokescreen.
I test your hypothesis that “no familiarity with the context of VJC” implies “getting out of hand”. That is, “familiarity with the context of VJC” implies “getting in hand”:
A (A1 is familiar with A2) implies B (getting in hand).
A is true.
Therefore, B is true.
A single counterexample is sufficient to show that your implication is falsely framed. That is, I can show “A implies B” is not a logical connection with an example pertaining to familiarity. Suppose you are familiar with a person. Does that imply that initiating sex with her is necessarily “in hand”? Clearly not. The principle as described is clearly not generally applicable, nor have you proved that it is within the specific frame of reference we are interested in, nor am I least believing you are capable of that. On an objective level, I would say that you are bullshit-ing us with comfortably defendable smokescreen.
And yes – you are still bullshit-ing, in both instances.
I give an example with a more practical imperative. A friend once attempted to initiate sex on me. I quickly pushed him away, asking him for the motivations behind his oblique passion. He said something along the lines of, “I’ve known you for so long already, and you invited me into your [hostel] room.” Now, that I’ve known him for long is true, and that I had made a gesture that is subject to interpretation (that is, inviting him into my room) is also true. But does that mean his interpretation of my gesture is correct? The proof protocol is obviously in my hands – not his.
Similarly, the truth of a religious faith in God (as enacted and/or, as He enacts, in the Christian doctrine) is in his possession, not yours. Even if your protocol for justification is epistemic faith, for it to constitute a qualified belief per tripartite theory of knowledge, there is an element of “truth” that is object to that of which you inquire (God) irregardless of your choice of protocol for justification. Which brings me to, “You’re just painting an arrow where it lands, go away!” I insisted.
To be fair to you, such an example may be seen as overtly, an extremity, since I suppose not all of us (here) are women. Hence, I bring up an example that is more likely to pertain to you to illustrate “painting an arrow where it lands”, in place of how I’ve come across the sentence. A friend of mine, a Catholic priest, discussed with me on his opinion based on one of his experiences. A teenage boy, as he assumed, had issues reconciling with his newfound regularity in masturbatory pleasure. He felt a guilt that prompted his wish to extricate through the Sacrament of Confession. Acceptable.
But he had an uncertainty, he then extenuated his sins, making light of it to his advantage:
“But isn’t it possible to masturbate without sexual thoughts, and therefore do it without sinning?” the boy stated.
Truth is, consider the act of ‘masturbating without sexual thoughts’. To do so, you logically pre-comprehend what is “masturbating with sexual thoughts” such that you can deliberately act the negation – that is, “masturbate without sexual thoughts”. So far so good, but that means the boy was aware of a dichotomy in the possible lines of action:
D1: You want to masturbate.
D2: You want to “not masturbate”. (It is incorrect to say “You do not want to masturbate” is the negation because this statement permits a totally irrelevant behaviour, e.g. “You want to design condoms,” to be a true proposition qualified to be the stated negation.)
Now then, every time he DOES indeed beat his chicken, irregardless of whether he does it regularly or not, e has decided to commit D1. So far so good – my friend still doesn’t find anything wrong up to this point. But that he OPTED to masturbate without sexual thoughts means he knew what are sexual thoughts sufficiently to deliberately suppress them. Point: every next time he does this, whether or not he has been desensitised to this, it means that he has already . Now, the act of masturbating is then overtly sinful not because it is a sin of sexual nature – that sin has already been committed at the instance of suppressing sexual thoughts – but it is overtly sinful because it is a lie to oneself; it is overtly sinful because one has decided to paint a target around the arrow and claim, “Hey, I want to do something that is, with regularity, possibly sexual. But since I know what are sexual thoughts, I can suppress these, I will still do it with regularity such that I am on the mark with God’s standards.” Suppose you think of “nothing” when you masturbated. Then I, as a third person, claims, “‘nothing’ per se is sexual.” Having painted the target, in order for you to have masturbated non-sexually, you will have to claim that ‘nothing’ per se is not a sexual thought. How do you know? Because you have CHOSEN to think of ‘nothing’ KNOWINGLY that it is supposedly, “not sexual”. This is no different from, “I will not commit crime because I know it will meet the standards to enjoy heaven, which I want to, i.e. but I will commit crime whenever given an opportunity to find a loophole, or to get away with it, benefiting me while meeting the standards to enjoy heaven.”
I analogise, suppose God gave only three commandments:
- Do not kill.
- Do not steal.
- Do not have sexual thoughts.
You want to “rape” because it feels good. Now, KNOWING what is wrong, i.e. “killing”, “stealing” and “having sexual thoughts”, you CONSIDER the proposition of “raping” – does it meet the criteria? It might. So you suppress the possibilities of meeting that criteria and desensitise yourself to sexual thoughts before going out there and raping a poor girl. And apparently, you can rape without having sexual thoughts. True enough. Does that mean since you have not committed the sin of “not having sexual thoughts”, you can go on and rape anyone you like? Not at all, because of the very act of suppression. It is a self-placating Ring of Gyges, this target around the arrow: you’re satisfied that you can benefit from it while meeting your interpretations of God’s requirements. There is only one possibility for masturbation in this respect to be acceptable, that is that God POSITIVELY makes the statement (rather than negatively rejects possible negations) that “Thou shalt regularly masturbate without sexual thoughts.” The act enacting the proposition “Thou shalt regularly masturbate SUPPRESSING sexual thoughts” is still an overt sin.
And so the priest told me, “I’m afraid the more I proceed, these arrows verily land on their mark – not because of His guidance, but merely a human intervention.”
I shared the same opinion.
There is one way you can certainly show that my argument is false: that is, of course, you publicly admit that you feel it is necessarily true that being familiar with a member of the fairer sex (and I believe you are phenotypically male) makes initiating sex with her “in hand”. You can also publicly admit that you feel it is acceptable to masturbate because of your personal beliefs that “Thou shalt regularly masturbate without sexual thoughts”. The latter admission is fine – it’s just that you’re not a member of the Christian faith if that is the case; you’re just merely painting your target around Christianity.
Alternatively, you can claim you’ve never had sexual thoughts therefore “without sexual thoughts” is a positive action instead of an act of suppression. Now, imagine me, naked in the shower – OK, I have just eliminated that possibility.
——————————
Messrs Gay: To “paint a target around an arrow where it lands,” – and no, that doesn’t mean you scored a bullseye. If it’s your personal principles that we’re talking about, don’t associate it with that of our Christian doctrine. By definition of religious “follower”, it means you are not an “enactor”. You are not supposed to enact any principles by which the Christian order should follow: since when are you in the position to prescribe the interpretation by which you should follow if you claim to be a “follower” of Christianity? It is incorrect to describe this as ‘religious faith’ a la epistemology, nordoes employing a private belief that your interpretations hold any sway empower you with doctrine-influencing powers.
If premarital sex is your pastime par excellens, OR if you will like to engage in many years of casual love-making while deferring marriage as long as possible, OR for that matter you establish any pre-marital relationships with post-marital pre-benefit analysis (in hopes of the lusty, debaucherous AND equally casual love-making post-marriage), OR if you have no such notions but develop the activity of casual love-making post-marriage, OR you marry with an preconceived hopes of “safe (from God’s punishment)” abandonment of virginity, don’t give anyone the crap that your interpretation of the doctrine is true and go on doing it. Oh~ but of course, God will forgive you – because you have decided that YOU are God: you are just labelling your personal ethics as “Christian” ones.
——————————
I do not have any conclusion that is soothing to make. Conclusions such as, “It’s all up to me to decide,”; and, “It rests on my faith,”; or, “There is no contention,” are easy to make, but the belief that the easiest assertion is true is a gross simplification of Occam’s razor. These, figuratively (and literally) Gay conclusions are only for people whose ears are holes solely for air flow. My conclusion is that this thread is full of filthy liars, hypocrites to be specific. It doesn’t concern me, of course, for I know pseudochristians to be such. What concerns me is how you go around destroying the reputation of our movement. Please, desist from your self-proclamations. The correct movement describing your principles is “utilitarianism”, not “Christianity”.
September 27, 2008 at 11:53 pm |
ok first things first
Therapist: Law school much? Bravo and may Valhalla welcome thee with Valkyries aplenty;)
Daryl:I shake you warmly by the hand, m’boy. you’ve addressed a sensitive issue that we Victorians have all been a bit riled bout in a mature, sensible way.
Can’t remember who:
1) is it right to accuse another of hardheadedness when you profess blind faith to a God that less than half the world belives in?
2)if the ark’s on mt ararat why hasn’t some enterprising christian ODAC representative gone up there with a weather-proofed SLR, photographed the bleeding thing and shut us all up?
Muslim dude: first off selamat hari raya puasa man. I’m feeling yr pain and looking forward to wednesday =/
as a semi-religious muslim/Pastafarian myself, i would sincerely love to sit here playing devil’s advocate to all you lovely souls out there whom i am so pleased to see are so steadfast in your faith. It warms the cockles o’ me heart to see that the world still DOES have believers of some sort.
but exams/ my laptop’s battery beckon otherwise and so this battle shall be fought another day.
for now though, i ask you and all other religions a question i’ve been asking for 5 years:
What if we’re all wrong?
September 29, 2008 at 8:27 pm |
To markhsx
I hope that you will not be insulted or offended by what I say.
Firstly, “such as preaching or singing, is done more or less privately”.
So then are you admitting you have and seen students done preaching or singing in school before? Then I am not making an unfounded claim. If you so happens to see them, then I doubt how much a private preaching and singing session it can be. In any case, you should not have such sessions in school. If you want go to your nearby church but not school.
Secondly, “you cannot generalise about a whole religion from the experiences or interactions you have had from the people of that religion you have met. For example, it seems to me that most Christians you have met are “arrogant and uncaring”, but the religion does not teach one to be such… ”
I was referring to the “rising tide of Christian evangelism in Singapore” that have been insensitive to many non-christians. Daryl has written about this in his post, many other comments here have also spoken about this insensitivity. This insensitivity shows that they are “arrogant and uncaring”. I am clearly not an isolated case. I am not making an unfounded claim.
I respect your right to believe your god, even though your belief is wrong. Praise to Allah. But try not to make unfounded claims and say that I am making unfounded claims.
To megan
“I am merely speaking the Truth in Islam as you Christians evangelise your God which by doing this you are not respecting other religions. – jamir
hey jamir :) really not being rude or anyth, i just find this statement contradictory…”
Not contradicting =) I am not denying that Islam will sound insulting to Christians, the same way Christians evangelising will insult many other people of different beliefs. Neither do I deny my comments here may sound insulting to Christians. Like I said you all started the ball rolling. It would be hypocritical to say that I won’t puke at the persistence of Christians trying to convert me. And vice versa. Looking at the issue at hand in school, it is clear that Christians evangelising and are the ones insulting and not Muslims.
Of course I am not targeting Christians that are not encouraging putting up of the posters and aggressively trying to convert all their friends. So don’t feel sorry unless you are one of them <3
To Diu Shard
Beyond my seemingly insulting comments, you should understand what I am driving here. Is it right for Christians to put up posters(they are still up by the way) which are insensitive to many non-chrisitans? As you are an ex SC president, I believe you should at least intervene in something… that you believe is wrong. Don’t let the Christians have a chance to insult us after you had stepped down. Not only for the students who feel insensitive about the posters but in the name of Allah Almighty as well. Praise to Allah.
jamir m. achmed
September 29, 2008 at 8:35 pm |
“Don’t let the Christians have a chance to insult us after you had stepped down. Not only for the students who feel insensitive about the posters but in the name of Allah Almighty as well. Praise to Allah….”
I mean “sensitive” sorry.
September 30, 2008 at 12:09 am |
dear therapist:
i really have no idea why you keep distorting my words, i have no idea how ive insulted you or riled you in anyway and i really dont get what you’re trying to say anymore. maybe im just stupid and naive, but please, i would really appreciate it if you stop dissecting my words and linking them to arguments with sexual connotations and examples because i really am disturbed by it all.
and let me emphasize, GAY is my surname, i was borned with it. but it definately does not mean i am not straight, and it does not imply that i like to talk about sexual stuff so explicitly like that. so please stop.
thankyou and have a good day.
September 30, 2008 at 6:35 pm |
Dear Messrs Gay
I fail to comprehend why you would insist that my arguments are in any manner sexual. Are you, in any manner, accusing me of posting under the influence of any sexual stimulation? If you are not, then it is clear that my arguments are merely anatomically advanced – not sexual.
October 2, 2008 at 12:26 am |
to FSM-mania:
or now though, i ask you and all other religions a question i’ve been asking for 5 years:
What if we’re all wrong?
my ans:
i guess that’s why it’s called a Faith :)
i won’t argue abt faith nor my belief in Jesus cos i know there’ll always be a long list of evidence as to why it’s not real etc etc. and cos honestly, by having faith, ive gained understanding (¬ the other way ard) which surpasses all worldly understanding and i know ppl just cant accept such an ans.
so anw dont let the cloud of doubt block your vision anymore or make you wonder this and that. just receive the Peace God wants to give you :) you know if there’s evidence for God, Faith would lose it’s beauty – it wld be worthless.
October 31, 2008 at 3:22 pm |
to :)
I agree with you. By having faith nothing is impossible. I believe in the free market. Indeed what are the governments thinking of bailing out companies or backing up the banks. If we do not trust the free market, we would not receive the blessings of capitalism. We need to resist the evil one that of socialism. As long as we have faith, the invisible hand will guide us, teach us, love us and save all our markets and investments.
I believe in God. I also believe in an alternate dimension of pokemon. I know some of you might say its just a game and there’s gonna be a long list of evidence saying that. BUT by having faith, we all can venture into the mystic realms of the pokeworld. It surpasses all 3d worldly understanding, seriously how can you use your 3d logic to define whether or not pokemon exist. If I want it to exist, it is my right.
Without faith, our pokemon world cannot exist. Let us all enjoy the blessings of pokemon mechandise with the guidance of the invisible hand.
Gotta catch em all!
November 1, 2008 at 12:16 am |
Let there be no more debate about this, since it is getting so out of hand.
For the upcoming A Levels (and for those who are not in a JC, in your future endeavours), stick to your beliefs (I don’t give a crap what; atheism, agnosticism, FSM, Zoroastrian, Baha’i Faith, Islam, Christianity, Scientology, Zoology, Botanist…) and all the best for the exams!
Seriously, concentrate on your bloody exams rather than debate this.
Don’t you want to ACE YOUR EXAMS?!
I’m not going to say peace, because some people might just contort my well-wishes into some religious bullcrap.
So, just my best wishes to you all. (Don’t ask me where the best came from, it’s just my well-wishes, not from God or Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.)
December 2, 2008 at 5:47 am |
I am glad that you decided to do nothing. Seriously don’t take this the wrong way, but I feel that people who are not religious are also denying the rights of those who are. I am Catholic, not super religious and I do believe in evolution and science. Why can’t I say merry Christmas to people anymore? I do not mean to offend anyone I am simpoly implying a good wish to them. If someone said happy hanukkah or simply have a good break isn;t it intended as a good wish? I think that we have to try to overcome these differences and yes I do believe that atheists need to be able to express themselves freely. The point is to not offend someone’s religion directly by making fun of it or something.I am glad that you gave it somethiught before putting someones’s hard work to waste. If people do not want to believe in something then they should simply follow their gut and not try to take down everyone else’s beliefs because lets face it that would be offending those who have different beliefs.
December 16, 2008 at 3:26 pm |
I call bullshit.
If people who are not religious are denying the rights of those who are, then does that mean people who are not (non-religious or religious) are denying the rights of those who are non-religious or religious?
The fact that we can produce reasoned arguments against other people’s religions shows that we bothered to make an effort to gain a proper understanding of their religions. Isn’t that a better disposition than which from those who claim to belong to a certain religious sect but do not follow its ideals, as therapist had said before?